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Location: UK
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05-12-2010, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer 
And Tassle too!
Because if you lower the excitment (by lowering value of treats) but train excatly the same (rate of reinforment ect) you get stress signals.
Adam
It does not follow that the stress is still there is you are changing the way you do it (ie - changing the reward).
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
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05-12-2010, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
But we also can't assume that dogs arn't distressed by reward training and don't find aversive training relaxing!
Adam
Oh dear God, what a crock! I've heard it all now - I cannot believe anyone would say that!I know, I'll kick my dog every time he pulls on the lead and see if he find it relaxing. Honestly, my four year old speaks more sense than this.
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Location: Ireland
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05-12-2010, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
But we also can't assume that dogs arn't distressed by reward training and don't find aversive training relaxing!
Adam
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Location: UK
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05-12-2010, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann
But Adam, not if you do it right as dogs learn by association....
Then they obviously havent done it well enough and are becoming impatient. Simply havent conditioned well enough for long enough in varying circumstances. People cant control the environment but they can choose where, when and how which means they can then limit the dogs chances of success or failure which is very important. So important that it means if they pay attention to that they wont need an E-collar and also that perhaps they should spend more time 'reading' their dog than damning its natural canine behaviours, if its obvious they wont handle a certain situation etc then dont set the dog up for failure in the first place and it wont then learn from the handler to ignore them.
Also when you say stuff like impatient and more time I just think that means they will end up doing the same things for ever with no progress, you just have to look around here to see people still struggling with DA/recall ect 6 months or a year after they first started, often several years.
Take an aggression problem, I just don't think its fair to force a dog to live with a lifetime of aggression issues because conventional approaches can't fix it. Same with recall, everyone says that on lead dogs have a good life, yeah they can do. Not as good as an off lead dog.
Yeah people will walk their dog for 2/3 hours a day and run with it ect. That may satisfy it (may not though) spend the same time with the dog off lead and it will be much happier.
Adam
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Location: UK
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05-12-2010, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by SLB
I know - and I tried for months at a time with all sorts, and they even had a trainer out before I came along
some good that did it and the good news is - and I do believe I said it in a previous post - I dont use it anymore - I've got it so he listens with treats (and the chain "fell off" in the woods)But Tupac, unlike AP - I hated using the chain and used it against my better judgement and only until I got him onto treats and my voice alone - AP uses the E-collar with pleasure and will willingly stick one around someone else's dog in order to "train" it.
Adam
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Location: UK
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05-12-2010, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Reality id you just can't do that! If you could there would be no badly trained dogs.
Also when you say stuff like impatient and more time I just think that means they will end up doing the same things for ever with no progress, you just have to look around here to see people still struggling with DA/recall ect 6 months or a year after they first started, often several years.
Take an aggression problem, I just don't think its fair to force a dog to live with a lifetime of aggression issues because conventional approaches can't fix it. Same with recall, everyone says that on lead dogs have a good life, yeah they can do. Not as good as an off lead dog.
Yeah people will walk their dog for 2/3 hours a day and run with it ect. That may satisfy it (may not though) spend the same time with the dog off lead and it will be much happier.
Adam
I do not feel the end justifies the means....you see a dog who can deal with situations - I see a dog who is forced to deal with situations through fear of something worse.
Again - not a way I think dogs should be treated.
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05-12-2010, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle
That makes no sense - you are changing the rules.
It does not follow that the stress is still there is you are changing the way you do it (ie - changing the reward).
Its still trained excatly the same the dog is just less animated by the cheese.
Adam
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05-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle
In your opinion.
I do not feel the end justifies the means....you see a dog who can deal with situations - I see a dog who is forced to deal with situations through fear of something worse.
Again - not a way I think dogs should be treated.
So I want robots (not) but you want dependants?
Adam
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Location: UK
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05-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Just lowering the value of the reward, cheese to gravy bones for example.
Its still trained excatly the same the dog is just less animated by the cheese.
Adam
This is not proof that the dog feels stress when the cheese is about - you cannot prove that unless you carry out physical tests. If you cannot see something there is no way to know it is there.
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Location: UK
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05-12-2010, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
So you don't mind a dog who can't deal with situations, how interesting.
So I want robots (not) but you want dependants?
Adam
However - I will not force the issue by making them fear something else more.
All dogs are dependent on us...so not quite sure what you are getting at there?.