Sally I understand your reasons but not your reasoning. Your insistence that it does not hurt can't be accepted and it is not logical. If it did not hurt it would not work and would have no purpose as it would be no different to a normal exercise collar.

If the getting of the dogs attention is what you were after I am still not sure why one would not use a master collar which is not, unlike the e-collar, intended to hurt but will most certainly get the dogs attention or if one chooses startle them in to thinking about what they are doing.

I have to agree Dawn. It is very, very easy for people to condemn another's actions without having walked in their shoes.

before you go can you tell me how i misquoted you? - i can go and find it and paste it if you cant remember yourself?

apologies if I swore AT you, and apologies to anyone else offended by the phrase 'bloody thread'.

happy debating

Not disagreeing totally as I wish more people would take breed traits into consideration when deciding whether a breed is right for them or not. However, people's circumstances can change and people move house all the time. Also, ANY dog can have strong prey drive, even within breeds that are not normally noted for such. The dog that attacked our sheep was a staffie - not a dog normally associated with stock worrying. I also knew of a springer spaniel that was a dreadful sheep worrier.

So if an e-collar didn't hurt it wouldn't work, but a master collar used on the same principle would? Surely if a master collar works by grabbing the dog's attention, then an e-collar can be used to the same effect? You don't HAVE to use an e-collar in such a way that it hurts. You CAN use it in exactly the same way as a master-collar - i.e. to startle the dog and grab its attention.

I WOULD be willing to try a master-collar (if I am right in thinking it's the blast-of-air collar). I had never heard of them till they were mentioned on this thread. But after seeing for myself how to use the e-collar PROPERLY, I don't think the e-collar is any more cruel than the blast-of-air type TBH. They both give the dog a shock to grab his attention. Neither is pleasant for the dog but they don't necessarily have to hurt him to get the effect.

Anyone who has ever touched an electric fence around cows will know it isn't a pleasant experience.

The difference being the e-collar gets attention by giving the dog an electric shock the master collar it is a very fine spray of air and water, if you consider to administer an electric shock to your dog is acceptable fair enough, your dog to do with as you wish, I just don't have to agree with you.

It is imperative the Master collar is used correctly as well, mistimed and you may as well not have bothered, but you will not have hurt your dog just made it wonder what they was all about and you can try again without causing the dog more pain.

I am sure when you decided to use an e-collar you did it with the very best of intentions and in your circumstances perhaps it was the best way, the thing I can’t accept is that you insist to shock a dog does not hurt.

I understand that gentlemen stepping over them have to be particularly careful because one moment of distraction can lead to a very painful experience.

But we're not talking about electric fences here. We're talking about e-collars which are adjustable and can be used on a very low setting to emit either a shock that is discernable without breaking the pain threshold, or a vibration or beeping sound.

Yet you admit you can shock a dog with a master collar without actually hurting the dog.