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28-08-2011, 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy 
Ah - light bulb moment. We are moving into Adam Palmer territory. Training aids with batteries, at a guess. How is Dennis?
photos didn`t insert- here are the nightmare girlies
Prove to us that you can comprehend a written text.
Prage Hans
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28-08-2011, 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
I find out why
basically I dont ask my dogs to do something if I know they wont
Sit is such a basic simple request for them that if they dont when I ask them too then I find out why
One time Ben wouldnt go into a down, when I investigated he had a sore tummy and the floor was irritating it, I moved him to a different surface and he happily complied
If I can see they arnt going to be paying attention to me because their focus is elswhere then I do something to get their focus first
if I mess up and on the rare occasion I ask them when I havent seen that they are focused on something else then I will do something like move away from them a bit so they have to come back to me - then I ask them again and they do it
Not sure what you expected the answer to be - but I do not train with hands on at all, my dogs do not understand what is asked of them if you press down on them
I dont demand a behavior, I make sure it is fully trained in all situations and I ask
and my dogs happily comply
You let him do it. I know that you would not. Thus there must be an emergency brake of "NO!"
which needs to be taught during obedience training.
To this usually people say :"Well my dog would never do that" or " He always come if I call him". And to that I say I bet you $1000 that that is not so and I can prove it to you.
Prager Hans .
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28-08-2011, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
What do you do if your dog does not respond to your command?
Prager Hans
If your dog does not obey your command......
it is because you haven`t trained it properly (well enough).
It`s you - not the dog.
The dog is absolutely brilliant at being a dog.
You as a trainer... that needs work.
So shouting, stamping your little foot and blaming the dog really doesn`t help the situation.
Prager Hans
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28-08-2011, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Another study conducted by Hiby et al, suggests that non confrontational and positive methods are more useful to dog owners:
http://www.azs.no/artikler/art_training_methods.pdf
Use of harsher methods/punishment was associated with an increase of problem behaviours without concurrent benefits, so they may show a welfare concern. Positive training methods are more likely to be useful to the pet owning community.
Wys
x
"Historically pet owners trained their dogs using mainly negative reinforcement or punishment.
This is a typical sophistry. The truth is that historically trainers were always using positive and negative reinforcement properly, in balance and as necessary and in humane way.
This article generates a premise which is not truth and then fights against it to show you how great they are or their method is. All that in order to attract gullible lay crowd to spend money on their book or train their dogs with them. There are hundreds of books written like this.
The fact its that there are long known principles of psychology of the dogs. These principles are quite simple. Then there are ways to use these principles properly and improperly. No sane dog trainer ever will use mostly negative principles of training.
There is nothing new ( especially in dog training) under the sun. There are new applications of the principles but the principles are the same. Show me a "new revolutionary technique" and I will show you one based on the same principles and used many years ago.
Prager Hans.
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28-08-2011, 02:56 PM
Prager Hans
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Location: UK
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28-08-2011, 03:33 PM
If the roll isnt forced what are you doing to get the dog to roll over??
Luring with treats?
Tickling and tummy raspberries
stern face until dog rolls over?
and where do you get the idea that the dog sees you as boss when he is on his back?
Both my dogs love to get their tummies tickled, while they are at it they also partake in a little gentle mouthing and wrestling
also when they are playing one will often be upside down - but they sure aint submitting - Mia does an upsidedown sliding tackle so she can bite bens ankles
also many dogs sleep on their backs letting it all hang out - not submitting to anything at all - infact it takes a pretty secure confident dog to sleep in that position
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28-08-2011, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans
That is quite dangerous. What if your dog wants to great another dog across a street and is running under the car?
You let him do it. I know that you would not. Thus there must be an emergency brake of "NO!"
which needs to be taught during obedience training.
To this usually people say :"Well my dog would never do that" or " He always come if I call him". And to that I say I bet you $1000 that that is not so and I can prove it to you.
Prager Hans .
also you are assuming that dogs training positivly are less well trained than dogs trained by punishments
If I have a dangerous situation you can have an emergancy word that means something totaly AMAZING is about to happen
Lets face it if you need your dog to come back quick to you would you prefer that they fear the consiquences of NOT being close to you or that they really love being close to you and find running towards you the best thing in the whole world
honestly my dogs have not been trained to know what the word 'no' means
But in classes they constantly out perform the other dogs
and for an example
they have a total bombproof stay - a stray dog charged at and jumped over my DA girl when she was in a stay - and she didnt move
I can see more emergancy situations needing a bombproof stay where I can leave my dog and go and deal with something dangerous - than I can with a recal - simply because of the areas where I walk my dogs
and dogs trained with punishemnts in a stay can be pretty unconfident, creeping forwards for reasurances
If trained well a positive stay is a total joy to see with every new distraction making the dog actually happy because they are expecting good thing and know exactly what is wanted of them
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28-08-2011, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
I have to ask then
If the roll isnt forced what are you doing to get the dog to roll over??
Luring with treats?
Tickling and tummy raspberries
stern face until dog rolls over?
That can be done through play. Same as you describe. Watch 2 pups to play.
and where do you get the idea that the dog sees you as boss when he is on his back?
No dog will show a belly to another pack member unless it is a submissive gesture. Like i respect you. Have you see the pictures of the wolfs which i have posted here. That is where this come from.
Both my dogs love to get their tummies tickled, while they are at it they also partake in a little gentle mouthing and wrestling
Yes that is it. By doing so they are building social structure of trust and hierarchy. At first one may roll over and then the other, but eventually one will roll less then the other. Also it has different undertone if they are 2 females or 2 males or 2 dogs of different sex or if one or both are neutered or spayed.
also when they are playing one will often be upside down - but they sure aint submitting - Mia does an upsidedown sliding tackle so she can bite bens ankles
also many dogs sleep on their backs letting it all hang out - not submitting to anything at all - in fact it takes a pretty secure confident dog to sleep in that position That is a sign of trust. Look just because someone is my boss does not mean that I do not trust him or are afraid of him. As a matter of fact if the relationship is on proper level than there is a trust from the submissive dog that if he/she lays on the back exposing his belly that he trusts the dominant member of the pack to be fair in his pack ethics and not to attack it.
That said there are asocial dogs ( I call them asocial B*****DS) who do not play by the code of ethics of the pack and will attack other dogs even so he/she "cries uncle" by laying on its back.
These dogs are usually bred that way by people for despicable people for fighting purposes.
There is also another exception and that is 2 females where one is coming into heat. These will sometimes kill each other showing belly or not.
There are other exceptions which are beyond the scope of this topic.
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28-08-2011, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Its a legal requirement that dogs are onlead beside roads so that is not an issue
Just because it is legal requirement odes not mean that the leash will not slip from your hand.
also you are assuming that dogs training positivly are less well trained than dogs trained by punishments
Nowhere have I said such thing!!!!
If I have a dangerous situation you can have an emergancy word that means something totaly AMAZING is about to happen
Lets face it if you need your dog to come back quick to you would you prefer that they fear the consiquences of NOT being close to you or that they really love being close to you and find running towards you the best thing in the whole world
Again you are putting words in my mouth. Your problem is that you believe that negative reinforcement must induce fear in the dog. That is not the truth.
honestly my dogs have not been trained to know what the word 'no' means
But in classes they constantly out perform the other dogs
and for an example
they have a total bombproof stay - a stray dog charged at and jumped over my DA girl when she was in a stay - and she didnt move
I can see more emergancy situations needing a bombproof stay where I can leave my dog and go and deal with something dangerous - than I can with a recal - simply because of the areas where I walk my dogs
and dogs trained with punishemnts in a stay can be pretty unconfident, creeping forwards for reasurances
If trained well a positive stay is a total joy to see with every new distraction making the dog actually happy because they are expecting good thing and know exactly what is wanted of them
So you have a perfect dog. Good for you. I will travel 1/2 across the world to see one
Prager Hans
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