You are right! *Even talking to folk on the phone through business & then "meet" them, they are never as you imagine!*

Not having seen the articles in question I couldn't give an opinion to say if it appeared to be malice, or a genuine but strongly held difference of opinion. There certainly seems to be a lot of malice directed at some posters on here at times if their views or experiences are not sympathetically received.


However imo if someone was only looking at correction or shock to train, without ever rewarding required responses (does anyone do that? ) that would just be the flip evangelical side of the positive and still be in the one-size-fits-all/one truth school of thought imo, just coming at it from the opposing side.

Most people can be very nice when they are being agreed with by a sympathetic audience but I have known a couple of the people on your positive list who were less "lovely" if challenged on something they had said, such as one not differentiating between behaviour associated with chronic as opposed to acute pain, which are very different.

Another one of those on your list was stating one thing in a certain situation and admitting an entirely different outcome to another audience where the agenda was very different.

I won't say who each was as I do not wish it to become personal about anyone.

In fairness I have also known a very similar situation from one or two of the correction supporters.

In both cases propaganda can take precedence over truth, again it seems to be because to admit anything else goes against promoting their "gospel", as adopted by whichever group.

And of course human nature means one is always going to be more receptive, more trusting and less critically analytical of those whose views and outlooks appear to be closely aligned with your own.

Yes, I certainly agree good trainers need good people skills, including getting people onside and motivating them to work with the trainer and for boht owner and trainer you and the dog, not in opposition.

However some people can have a professional persona they use in their job, to a greater or lesser degree, which can be slightly different to their "off duty" or private persona, which is not always a bad thing. Other people will "switch off" and so behave differently when not working.

As Derren Brown says, he doesn't spend all his free time "reading" people. Similarly some trainers will have a different relationship with clients, when they are working, to how they may interact with people who aren't clients who they encounter in their "off" time.

The huddling in the corner scenario is just another version of a clique, you're in or you're out, the "good" owners and the "bad" owners.

I understand human counsellors belonging to some professional organisations are required to have ongoing counselling themselves, to enable them to cope with the work stresses.

Possibly a more appropriate venue for "venting" than in front of a client, or during a class with the owner(s) present!

Krusewalker, I had a similar experience with classes. I actually ended up going to a class that generally used choke chains and force for 3 years simply because the trainers were actually fantastic for the most part. The class was far more relaxed and the atmosphere was soooo much better than any of the positive classes I went and saw. I used clicker and treats, they had no issue with that at all or with me working at Ruperts pace whereas the positive ones I went to with him made me feel as though I was holding the whole class back.

I wouldn't want to use a choke chain on my dog and could see a huge difference between him and the ones who were trained with old fashioned methods but the class itself suited us far better than any other.

very interesting indeed

actually I have quit 2 'positive' classes after I found myself driving home in tears after the classes

In one class after Mia going there happily for over a year (and the trainer knowing all about her issues) they started letting loads of new reactive dogs into the class without a word to the rest of us, kept having digs at me about 'yes we know how difficult it is to work with a reactive dog, ive been there, but it didnt take so long!' Told me to let her offlead when I knew she was too distracted, sent another (v shy) owner out of the room to 'have a word with her unmotivated dog' and spent 10 min in class infront of us all telling one owner that her dog should have a stay by now

not a nice class to be in - shame because it started so well

Oh dear -know how you feel!
We joined a new class for agility with Cherry last year where the trainer was supposed to be in favour of positive methods but I later found out she was a CM fan!

We were on week 7 of an 8 week course and without any notification I was put in a different class with just one other dog-a very reactive Beagle bitch. The owners weren't running this dog-the trainer was. As soon as I got in the door with Cherry this Beagle fixated on her and wouldn't stop barking at her. The trainer was working her on a long line so I wasn't concerned but halfway through the class without any warning she let her off the lead and she flew at Cherry. I am afraid she met my foot first as I had no time to pick Cherry up or get my pet corrector spray out.
I was fuming as this trainer knew Cherry's background that she was nervous of other dogs and she had been previously attacked in an agility class.
She told me that I should not have kicked the dog and it was displaying breed-specific behaviour! I said if she had warned me that she was letting the dog off the lead I would have picked Cherry up and had my pet corrector spray ready as it was obvious the dog would attack her judging by its behaviour all night. Needless to say we didn't go there anymore!

Oh dear - not nice!

I kinda think we need a different term for positive and 'positive'
It seems too many trainers use the term just because the use treats but are actually pretty traditional

Just a daft thing - but in a few different classes trainers have been trying to get my dogs to lie down by pushing them down
- I even had one trainer tell her Mia was willfull because when she was pushing Mia was turning round to see what she was up to
I pointed out to the trainer if she wanted my dogs to lie down she just had to ask them - i haddnt trained them with compulsive methods so the dogs had no idea what she wanted

It's not just the trainers who are the issue I've found. It's the other owners I had the biggest problem with. Rupert has never been the easiest dog and I was made to feel like the lowest of the low by a lot of the other owners in the positive classes. Eyes would roll whenever it was our turn to do something, people would look pointedly at their watches, snide comments would be made and it wasn't enjoyable for me or Rupert.

At the traditional class we went to Rupert was absolutely adored by most of the other owners. Nobody was made to feel stupid if they struggled to understand an exercise or their dog had problems. There was a lot of laughter but it was never malicious. If Rupert did an exercise his own way (down stay was usually done upside down with his legs waving in the air, sit stay was in the begging position, things like that) then as long as I was okay with that then so was the instructor. We had a great time at those classes and I'd go back in a heartbeat despite the instructors old fashioned views and methods. Rupert was always so excited to go there, I think he saw it as an ideal opportunity to show me up and get some laughs to be honest coz that's what he did each week

I know there are good positive classes out there but I do think many so called positive ones aren't really that positive at all. I've seen dogs pushed and pulled into position and shouted at and even given leash corrections in so called positive classes. And the way some of the owners have been spoken to is disgusting! Positive training isn't just about using treats.

Yes it should be fun and supportive
When I started the agiity class with Mia we all had difficult dogs but the whole class was so suportive and it was totaly fun - then the trainer changed

I was very lucky because the puppy class I went to was supportive and good and positive. The trainer was lovely, good with people and adored all the dogs too

This is the sort of thing I meant. Acceptance that different people use different approaches and each have their values and weaknesses.

From what you say, here is a class that doesn't judge you or your dog if you prefer an alternative method to theirs, but who will still help and support you with that method.

I cannot see any "positive" class showing reciprocation and accepting someone using a check chain if they felt their dog required it, never mind helping and support them in that approach.

This is the difference between accepting there is no single right answer in all cases and inevitably those evangelists who believe there is only one truth also believe they have the monopoly on it.

I think one danger to this outlook is it supports aiming to shut up or stifle any further debate or dissent and generally any method is weakened by uncritical unquestioning acceptance.

Although I understand what you are saying I will not be accepting choke chains

For several reasons
Firstly because I totaly do not agree with them
I dont like what it does to the dogs
I dont like what it does to the owners
I find it cruel
and
I hope to join the APDT's at some point and its part of their rules not to alow those kind of devices

I realise it is excluding people but I have looked into it, thought about it and even in my younger days used a choke chain and I dont see any positives in using them in training