It's probably a much better deterrant than the prisons of today are but that's a whole different subject to be honest.

I think this is the main thing to be honest. HOW you speak out against them. And sometimes simply agreeing to disagree is the best thing to do, some people simply don't want to change their methods and nothing you do or say will persuade them otherwise and online it just causes mega threads with lots of nastiness to be honest. I'll always speak out if I see someone recommending things like alpha rolling, hitting etc but if it's obvious they won't change their own ways then I won't waste my energy trying to make them, I'll just try to stop others following their advice in the first place.

I doubt that those adamantly pro aversives and those adamantly anti aversives will ever change their stance, but the discussions that take place do give both sides of the picture so provide others with food for thought

Good post.


.

Well, I have been taught by the person who was "got at" and she is not only a kind, knowledgeable person, but she is really good with people too. She happened to speak up in the dominance debate (she did not mention any names or attack any body) and got lambasted for it in a very personal and unpleasant manner. You either find that sort of behaviour acceptable or you don't - I don't


Shock collar trainers sometimes use praise and toys, but often I've seen them (on videos) just using the result of "no punishment" as the so called "reward"...

No-one is perfect and people can have off days, also some people might have more knowledge than others. From what I know of these people though, they are good with dogs and good with people.

It's interesting that you use the word "challenged" - if whoever it was asked about something in this way, a challenging way, rather than politely perhaps that was part of the problem... I'm a positive trainer, but I don't enjoy people being "challenging" to me, I'd rather they asked nicely

I'm also happy to admit when I am wrong or when I don't know the answer to something, as I find owners tend to trust you more if you are honest with them.

Quite!

Wys
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Ben that's a shame - if the trainers belonged to any particular "body" then I'd see no reason why you could not say that you've driven home in tears and found the trainers less than positive with people...

Wys
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There seems to be alot of similar experiences. I suspect they use the "positive" idea to get people into their classes in the first place.

There is one "new" course which is supposed to focus on both CM and the more up to date info - just totally opposing information and whoever goes for it is going ot be paying money through the nose for a course for very confused people.

.......

She sounds like a lunatic!

Wys
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It all gives genuine positive training a bad name, and to be honest, as someone who does count herself a positive trainer, hearing about it makes me cross.

If anyone goes to a class that is APDT UK for example (not the US one, which is also in the UK ) and they see shouting at dogs or anything like the above, they need to contact the organisation and it will be looked into, and the trainer may lose their membership, which would be better for those who truly want to be in an organisation which is decent and honest.

Wys
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The choke chain debate and why some trainers do not allow people in their classes to use them at all, is interesting.

What has happened so far is that the generation of trainers and owners who used choke chains and who then stopped using them (like myself) have moved on to more positive methods and we prefer those positive methods, because when used correctly they give good results and a good dog/owner relationship.

Now we are on to another younger generation who have probalby not used choke chains, but who have learnt that punishments like that are not required to train dogs, and so are not using them either.

As for classes - IMO it's like John Fisher and Ian Dunbar. JF wanted only positive trainers for the APDT UK, and ID wanted a mixture, as he felt the less positive would learn from the ones who were reward based.

What in fact has happened is that genuine positive trainers can join the APDT UK with confidence, knowing that everyone feels the same (no pain to train, sort of thing) but in the US, peeps who have joined are from all walks of training including shock collars. If I went to the US for example, I'd have NO organisation that I could join with confidence as sticking up for the dogs

So I do think that the view that it's best to NOT use or allow choke chains in classes is the right one. If someone wants to use a choke chain, they can be helped to use something else (and be shown how to teach their dog in other ways) or, be asked to leave if they are not open to that.

I actually think the last is quite important - the reason being that there are many people, such as myself as an owner, who do not want to go to a class and to see a dog being "trained" with a choke chain. There has to be places where people who do not want to see dogs treated like that, can go. There are so many clubs that do still allow choke chains - so, the owners who want to use them can go to those clubs.

I see no reason for them to expect a positive class to let them in the door, if they are not willing to be open to other methods ....

If they are not prepared to join in with the non choke chain policy of a positive club, why are they even there in the first place? I don't get it.

I used to use choke chains. I used them efficiently and I got good resullts. Partly because I was very consistent and used lots of praise. However, I used it a la Woodhouse and I did hurt my dogs at times, and I look back now and thank the stars that I found another way to teach dogs .

Also, I'd say that most owners who used them got really bad results and you'd see dogs pulling and pulling, and almost turning blue! I've also seen dogs who were strong pullers with them on, who would never stop pulling, as they were not getting enough exercise. It is not always about the equipment, but about the whole dog ....

Vet Robin Walker used to be with the Met Police and treated many a dog for eye, neck, back and gait problems due entirely to robust use of the choke chain. Clearly use of said item can be harmful at worst and still physically uncomfortable at best, in my view.

Not everyone will agree, but I wanted to give the opinion of someone who has used them a lot and who has a low opinion of their use. (I can talk about myself, and my own experience, see! )

I think actually, going back to pos. trainers/owners not being open to other ways - or i think as Tass put it, being evangelical about pos. methods - the thing is, most of them have used those other ways, and have chosen to abandon them

Wys
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Just wanted to sort of tag this onto the end of my "choke chain post" ...

I do see things very differently to you, Tass. Having used choke chains myself for many years, I don't see a need for their use now, nor do I feel that positive classes "should" be accepting of owners using them.

Reasons why are as said above, but basically if you are a positive trainer, you'd want to stick by what you believe in and also enjoy teaching. I'd hate teaching someone how to use a choke chain, I'd frankly feel extremely depressed about it

It's one thing to be open to helping, quite another to compromise strong principles based on experience and personal belief system.

I would always be open to helping/teaching someone who use a CC how to train a dog differently, and would not denigrate them, If they came to my classes, they'd have to accept they'd take it off, or have to leave... I would not be unpleasant to them about it, at the end of the day, it's their choice

Wys
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Good point---I'll take that instead!

I tell my dog when they are wrong in life quite happily . If they are wrong in training it is my fault not theirs.

Telling a child they are wrong when they are learning to read can cause a disaster---telling them they are wrong to hit another child is somewhat different!

rune