A full tail though is massively important to dogs when communicating with other dogs. The tail position is a signpost for other dogs of their rank, how they're feeling, and general health. A docked dog may be able to wag his tail and his whole back end, my GSP did most expressively, but she could not lift or drop it when greeting other dogs. It must be the equivalent to our handshake, a tail.

From Rip's postFlat Coats are retrievers, Springers are hunters bred to work in thick cover - two totally different jobs hence why one is docked and the other not!

Don't you believe it, try telling that to a flatcoat owner - they will work in just the same sort of cover - the flatcoat is just as much a hunter as the springer, their prey drive can be very high - and they don't work in quite the same way as other retrievers, sitting close by until someone sends them to retrieve. In a lot of ways a good flatcoat can do a better job and be more uiseful than some HPR's (says she running into a cupboard to hide )

[QUOTE=Ripsnorterthe2nd;2205524]Lovely full tails???? I tell you what, the next time Oscar my full tailed Wire Vizsla is screaming in agony because he's ended up with dead tail after a spell hunting for game I'll give you a ring so you can come and view his "lovely full tail". Doesn't matter that the dog can hardly walk without screaming (and I mean screaming, my parents nearly rang the vets the first time they witnessed it as they thought he was paralysed ), as long as it looks nice, right? And you think those who dock are cruel. Unbelievable.

This is from an article on dead tail or limber tail. Nothing to do with actually HAVING a tail and suffered a lot by labs. I checked out a lot of sites and they all say the same thing.

<<<The most common theories as to the cause are swimming in cold water and heavy hunting or work in unfit dogs. The sudden return to exciting activity leads to more tail wagging and this causes the overuse of the tail, and limber tail syndrome. Pet dogs may also get the condition, particularly after playing in water. Dogs that are crated for travel after exertion are more prone to the condition.

The best way to avoid limber tail is to slowly condition a dog before the working season starts, or keep it fit. Crating should be avoided unless the crate is roomy, and dry bedding is especially important following work in wet conditions. Healing is accelerated by the use of anti-inflammatory drugs in some dogs and the drugs will provide relief from pain for all dogs suffering from the condition.>>>>

So maybe rather than blaming the tail you could look into the articles and info yourself and maybe change the management somehow so that Oscar is less likey to get it? Looks like if you parents had rung the vets he might have been given some pain relief.

rune

yep... i met two labs only last week that had dead tail

They "will" work in cover is one thing...being SUPPOSED to work in thick cover as Spaniel breeds and HPR's do is another. Any breed of gundog 'can' work in cover but that doesn't mean to say that is what they are intended for. Flat Coats are retrievers and work nothing like HPR breeds, which is why they are not and never have been docked. I'm also not sure how you can say a Flat Coat is 'better' than most HPR breeds when they perform entirely different roles.

What I actually said was "In a lot of ways a good flatcoat can do a better job and be more useful than some HPR's"
I perhaps should not have said better job, but should have said a good flatcoat is just as capable and as versatile as an HPR which is what I believe is so. I think that their original working use was far more comprehensive than just being a retriever, although granted that is what they excel at.

While thinking about docking or not docking, a Large Munsterlander is an HPR who works in heavy cover and I wonder why they are not a docked breed. Would you know why?

All my dogs are pets first and foremost, but Oscar was bought primarily with working in mind. I plan to do pointing tests with him initially and if we're any good some working tests in the future. I'm training with the gamekeeper at the local Raby Estate so hopefully we'll also start working there come the start of the season, as long as my mobility improves and Oscar behaves himself!

Both Oscar's parents are from one of the top working Wire Vizsla kennels in this country. The litter wasn't docked as the breeder doesn't have a shot gun licence - the dogs are mainly used for falconry work out in open country/moorland. I thought long and hard about picking a dog with a tail, but as I wasn't aware that having a full tail could hinder the dog I felt it wouldn't be a problem. However speaking to a few people they have had similar problems, the HWVA is undertaking a tail injury study which will be interesting reading.

It does very much depend on the dog, some wag others don't. Oscar is a dog who truly uses his tail when hunting and this is what causes him the pain. I'm not against the docking ban for non working breeds, but what really gets to me is silly comments about dogs having a "lovely full tail". Statements like this come from people who probably haven't been within 3ft of an HPR, let alone worked one. It's all about winning the argument and having a clear conscience with many pure anti dockers, nothing to do with the dogs welfare imo.

Not working Oscar isn't really possible - he works automatically when we're out. How hard and how much he works will depend on the game available, of which I have no control over. Sometimes he only has to hunt for 20 minutes and he's in agony come the evening. The only way I could stop him would be to put him on a lead, which to my mind is a damn sight more cruel than docking at a few days old. These dogs instinctively want to be out in front quartering for game, it's what they're bred to do. Most of the time he manages fine, other times he does not. If the worst comes to the worst and he becomes badly affected, I'll consider having his tail amputated. The next time he has a bad episode I'll film it and post it on here, but hopefully that won't be for sometime. I think it's only fair those who desperately want all dogs to have lovely full tails regardless of the need to dock hear his screams.

Would I choose a docked dog next time? Possibly, but I wouldn't go out of my way to find one. It's not the "non docking" I have serious problems with, I love Oscar's full tail and I'll be gutted if it has to be removed. What I have a problem with is the bizarre attitude of some people, who don't want to recognise or don't care enough to actually look in to tail docking, who blindly assume docking is cruel. For many working gundogs it is beneficial.

Yes it is a very bizarre rule, so many dogs who work in the winter doing the job they've been produced for, can't go to Crufts because they've been docked to enable them to perform their function and I'll bet they'll be the fittest of the bunch!

It has everything to do with having a full tail - he's over stretching the muscles whilst hunting. The extra length of tail turns the movement in to a whip like motion making the damage more severe. Thanks for the info, but believe it or not I have already read up on it!

Oscar is already well managed to minimise injuries, but thanks for your concern.

Ok, so am I right in thinking you're trying to infer that my parents left my dog in pain by not seeking out veterinary advice? Wow, if that is the case that's low even for you rune. You never cease to amaze me and not in a good way!

Shall we explore what actually happened, rather than your apparent inference that my parents were cruel to my dog?

Oscar's dead tail doesn't usually show itself until the evening time, generally about 6pm-ish. On this occasion it started at about 6.30, I was due back from work in a couple of hours to collect him. As long as he's asleep he can tolerate the pain, so Oscar was kept quiet until I returned at 8.30 and once I got him home I gave him some metacam. I would say that I hope that's satisfactory for you, but the truth is I don't really care. I really just wanted to set the record straight.

Just goes to show how unpredictable the condition can be for him - my parents don't work Oscar, they don't know how. All he does when he stays with them is fetch a ball or run around the church yard. Something he has done on a regular basis, yet he has only suffered the once whilst staying with them for the last 18 months.

Pre-ban, as a vet nurse I have held hundreds of pups whilst their tails were docked and i never did I ever hear one scream, at most a whimper, most slept through the procedure.

We have HPRs and work them - given the chance to make an educated decision I would always have docked dogs. Through work/field trials/working the dogs I have seen and dealt with many, many damaged tails over the years and these dogs suffer - many would have been spared this if they had been docked.

JMO.

If Oscars condition is unpredictable it has nothing to do with working him does it? In the same way that it doesn't with any other dog with a tail. No difference between hunting and decent runs.

As labs get it a lot would you suggest they are docked?

Lets try and get it right---It is NOT the KC who are banning docked dogs from showing, it is the LAW. It has been discussed before and pointed out to you but you persist in calling it a 'rule'!

rune

More thoughts----This is obviously some kind of genetic problem if it is only found in certain breeds---perhaps dogs that get it should be removed from the breeding programme?

rune