That is near me...

The place in question is a very large game hatchery (that has been going since the 60's), that supplies estates etc with thousands of birds every year - when at capacity, they have 1.5million birds. They have excellent fencing, electric and otherwise, motions sensitive lights etc... however, what they can't risk is continuous fox attacks, where the foxes kill hundreds of birds - that's an entire family's livelihood, not to mention the local people they employ.

If there is a fox in the area that has been killing domestic animals/livestock - they will shoot it. If the foxes are taking their food from someone's garden/small holding, then they are more likely to come onto the hatchery's property too.

We live in a very rural area - there is plenty of 'wild' food around (rabbits etc) that they shouldn't need to come into gardens etc and eat people's chickens.

Are we top of the food chain? Really? I would like to see a human stand up against a tiger, or a curious shark. We have opposable thumbs and have created weaponry as a result but that doesn't make us top of the food chain.

As for me being naive- it is naive in the extreme to judge another species's intelligence through a human test ( as in your example of a fox doing algebra; tip that on it's head and let's see you escape the hunt.) Intelligence tests measure one chosen thing: maths, English, verbal or non verbal reasoning, emotion....even humans do well in some but not others. One person's view of intelligence is entirely different to anothers. To judge another species by our standards is arbitary and not useful.
"I am amazed at how people seem to attribute human sort of emotions onto a wild animal." Tarimoor.

Yet it is okay to do it with human measures of
intelligence which is just ad hard to measure ( if
not more so) as emotion?

Id be straight round there and tell them to shut the thing up! No question. Its a noise nuisance and should be dealt with as such. its another perfect example of countryside type animals living in towns, you have demonstrated it perfectly.

However, if you choose to allow it to continue then of course thats entirely up to you.

That's simply not true, I know gamekeepers who tolerate foxes on their land, as long as they don't start to predate on what is, an income.

Foxes have a place, that's not in question, what is in question is at what level that place is, in comparison to other species around them, and at what level the fluffy brigade interfere.

Then you live in a very different area to me, that doesn't happen and I don't know of anywhere nearby where it happens, estates simply can't afford to hire people to ride around on quads all day just in case they come across a fox, and if they can shoot it.

Why do foxes need to know the difference between what some view as a countryside sport, and what for them is normal day to day survival? Yet again, I am amazed at how people seem to attribute human sort of emotions onto a wild animal. Foxes are wild, they live or die whether the hunting ban is in place or not, some times that life is good, some times that life is short and painful, the hunting ban changes nothing, except makes a few fluffy bunny huggers feel good that foxes don't die an awful death at the mouths of hounds (regardless of how many now die of starvation and disease).

And as has also been shown on this thread, it's ok for animals to feel stress and be hunted by dogs, as long as we feel ok with it.

Does Velvetboxers live in town though? If she lives in the countryside, then countryside noises and smells are all part of that life. We live in a very rural setting and am woken up regularly by all the roosters crowing their little hearts out, sometimes before daybreak. It would be churlish and NIMBY in the extreme to choose and want to live in the countryside, and then moan about the downsides such as cocks crowing.

I simply cannot believe that is true. I would love to chat to that gamekeeper!

I have known farmers and shepherds say they will don't mind foxes, so long as they don't start to take too many lambs, but have never heard a gamekeeper say they will tolerate a fox ... it is more than their job is worth!

Disagree that foxes were once prey - only to humans, and then not to eat, but to be used perhaps for their fur. All the foxes I have ever seen have most definitely not been acting like, say, a rabbit. They will scarper for sure if they see you, but I watched a very healthy and very beautiful young fox near us who hadn't seen or heard me coming for quite some time. He was sitting there sunning himself just like a dog would. A rabbit would have been displaying far more defensive behaviour, and when eventually spotted me he would not have loped off as this little guy did, but would have legged him at the rate of knots!!

the point I was trying to make is that herbivores are prey ... to take the rabbit scenario again, a rabbit expects to be eaten at any moment by a whole myriad of creatures ranging from humans to birds. They are on guard 24:7. Ipso facto, my logic tells me that for a rabbit to be chased by my dogs is far less stressful than for a fox to be hunted - a vastly superior creature in terms of intelligence, and certainly not used to being attacked from all sides on a regular basis.

Whenever there is a discussion about foxes, inevitably fox hunting will be discussed. Fox hunting has been part of our rural countryside for centuries. It is not going off topic to discuss fox hunting IMO

http://www.gwct.org.uk/research__sur...aders/1651.asp

There is a scientific paper if you want to read deeper.

I was involved in this as I was research assistant every summer for 4 years. It was AMAZING to see the difference on the previously unkeepered areas, to see the curlews displaying again. When walking across the unkeepered plot, before the switch, it was pretty much dead, there was the odd wader around, and the odd grouse but nothing special. When they switched to the keepered plot, it was just unbelievable how quickly things came back - curlews, lapwing displaying, an abundance of grouse, etc etc.

To see that first hand, really makes me believe that foxes must be controlled. I remember walking through a keepered plot and finding a fox. I knew I had to tell the keeper it was there, but I wasn't happy about doing so. I am not blood thirsty, and don't like to see things killed needlessly, but again, I believe foxes need to be controlled.

Lapwings are on the red list now, so are critically declining. We have plenty on here...but foxes and other predators are controlled. The RSPB will now control predators, although very quietly as it doesn't sit well with your average joe public.

Now to the cost of it. Foxes on a grouse moor can cause a lot of damage, which I have seen for myself. A "small" grouse day will bring in £18,000 for one day. Take into account all the keeper employed, their families who live with them in their houses which they get for free, and certainly couldn't afford if they had to pay. The beaters on the shoot day, the pickers up, loaders, caterers, beaters bus driver. The shepherds who are employed as part of the working estate, the gardeners, the foresty men. No grouse, no shoot day.

It is believed that £23.3 million is generated for the Scottish economy for grouse shooting. That is an awful lot of money.

Yes, foxes are controlled, yes it's a lot to do with money but where would we be without that money?

Helen

It is absolutely true. I have a friend who runs a shoot, rears pheasants and partridge, and has no problem with foxes at all. He would not hesitate to rectify the situation should it arise, but he has never had a problem.