I agree Claire, but I get very tired of being told by people like Adam that these devices are 'painless' when anyone applying a little logic can see the aren't

I am also well aware that no matter how much information people put forward about the adverse effects of using e collars there will always be those who disagree .
I have observed these people seem to fall into categories,
..those who are in the business of selling e collars to the general public , they need to refute any mention of adverse reactions like pain or distress because it is bad for trade.
..those who wish to use e collar themselves because they are unable to address or manage a behavioural problem and need to justify the use of the collars to themselves,
..those who are looking for a quick fix and just don’t care about pain and distress.

There seems to be an overwhelming number of people against the use of these devices and hopefully as we learn more and more about animal behaviour/reactions others will join them and the collars will be banned everywhere.

Until that day I think it is important people are made aware of the damage these collars can do and are not taken in by the glib dissmissive comments of people like Adam.

Very witty.

You're against e-collars and want to see a U.K. wide ban imposed. You know full well what I mean - nothing to do with ignore lists.

Don't resort to sarcasm and cheap digs Wys - you're better than that, and should you choose to do so, you're capable backing up what you say with evidence.


(Bold): Me too.

Van der Borg is an often quoted report regarding psychological effects (presented to parliment as evidence prior to publication - not very good science I'm sure you'll agree). There are other reports which contradict this: Strichnoth (2002). Tortora (1982). Christansen, Bakken, Braastad (2001, a and b).

As things stand, I'm not convinced there's a good enough reason to impose a ban. I previouly described to Brierly a kind of "escalating scale".

From my personal experience:

We took on a dog (not a pup). Basic needs provided. Consitent training at APDT class. We had his previously unreported medical problems diagnosed and treated. Had behavioural problems - took advice from trainer. Still had behavioural problems which led to dog warden/police becoming involved. Sought behavioural consultation. We now have things pretty much sorted.

But, had things escalated further, would I have considered aversive methods (including an e-collar)? I think I probably would have - as I wasn't going to send him back to the rescue kennels. What would be the difference between that, and someone going to DR and reaching the stage of using a spray collar?

Essentially, I'd describe misuse as being when the collar is used as a stress reaction. I've written in more detail here.

Using an e-collar on a puppy etc - allow me to paraphrase someone's response to this: why wouldn't you use PR? You'd be mad not to -because it works. (Cesar Millan - Cesar's way).


The advantage of ES is that it can be presented in a highly controlled (intensity, duration, and density) and timely doses... (Lindsay).

yup PR works for puppies, dogs, killer whales, horses, chimps, cheetas, goldfish, children, babies and even men

If clicker training can teach a cheeta to happily press his chest to the bars to have his heart listned too
For a chimp to present his arm to get injections
A elephant to hold his feet up to get his nails trimed

all off these things in total happyness with no fear or forcing

Then for someone to not be able to train a dog (a species that WANT to work with humans) basic behaviours without inflicting punishment and possible pain (I am in no doubt there is pain involved but some people are not sure) then that just shows lack of skill, imagination and empithy

If anyone is in doubt about e collars really LOOK at the dogs in the videos posted on this thread
HONESTLY ask yourself are the dogs while doing BASIC simple behaviours looking happy? Compare to the dogs who are positivly trained

I know. I can only stomach so much, I found it veryhard watching shock collar videos and when it reached the stage of waking up at night thinking about them, I had to just stop and take a break. It's truly vile.

Wys
x

Eh????

How rude. You really are one of the rudest posters on this thread, Michael M.

Actually no, I don't know what you mean. I was certainly not making ANY digs.

However, I often find your posts badly written and frankly ambiguous! If I am being blunt.



Wys

There's a fairly lengthy discussion here which I found interesting:

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/...ectric-collar/


edit: But can't get the link to work from here - article was "In The Dock: The Electric Collar" K9 Magazine

Mynona - This is a LIE at best and a LIE at worst!!


Very easy to check it out if you did not bother to contact prof Mills. Call DEFRA science dept, ask for Andrea Paterson or John, room 4a

Adam

The guy who has just been reported as having numerous sales of a training DVD???

Robin Macfarlane is a woman.

Adam

Practise your timing, e;g pressing/not pressing and guiding the dog into position ect.

Adam

RE pain!

If it hurt they wouldn't work!

Pain is distracting and interfers with the ablity to concentrate and learn!
Try learning something when you have a tooth ache and see how much you remember, nothing or very little.

E collar trained dogs tend to have greater reliablty and greater speed of learning than conventionally trained dogs. The opposite of what would happpen had pain been applied.

Adam