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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 10:09 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
I think we all agree that 'raining' is positive but 'emergency' is different. We just seem to differ on 'emergency'

rune
"Raining" is certainly positive if the soil needs it Rune
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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28-07-2011, 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
Brill. Can I ask how you would teach this?
if needed like this
but usualy if you keep the pup safely away from them when you cant supervise, distract when needed and make other things more exciting and rewarding the pup sees no interest in a cable that is there all the time and has much more desire to chew the fun things you give them (worked with Mia who chomped my internet cable - she has (touch wood) never chewed anything again since)
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I agree in many ways with this and I understand exactly where the OP is coming from. I am all for kissey noises and clickers and food and tug games - it was we base all our work on. But if I have to step into a dog aggression situation Im not going to do it armed with a sausage!

If you know your dog is agressive then you should be keeping him safe anyway, if a fight breaks out and you havent trained an automatic response from your dog then breaking the fight up ISNT training it is just managing the situation - the training is what you do afterwords to stop it happening again
Punishing a dog for fighting will just teach them that the other dog IS a bad thing
Feeding sausage for not fighting teaches them the other dog is a good thing


If my dog is so focused on something in the distance that it fails to hear me speak, then I am going to touch his or her sise to gain the attention that I need to train teh dog or keep it safe.

But that isnt training, its getting attention so you can train. I see nothing wrong with 'touching' touching where it causes pain to the dog is different
also it depends on the focus - if the dog is scared and focusing on a dog just about to react then touching him could well cause the dog to whip round and bite you


I also outline rules and boundaries and thing to be left alone if those things are required to keep the dog safe or within the confines of the law, or keep harmony with other dogs or animals.

me too

And if there is a life threatening situation in action, then I will take whatever action is necessary to save the dogs life.
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Quote from Lotsadogs:I see any act that my pup or dog is doing, that is "against" what I wish during its lifetime, as an emergency - ie it requires immediate remedial action.

I agree, I don't think every "emergency" has to be nessecarily "life threatening" however many behaviour and/or situations can still be potentially dangerous and undersirable.
again I dont see dealing with an emergency as training, its what happens afterwards where the training is

Get the dog out of the situation - or the situation out of the dog - tell yourself off for putting the dog in a difficult situation that you havent trained him for yet, and then think of a training/manegment plan

for example when I first got Mia I didnt know she was a sheep chaser
I let her off in a enclosed what I thought was a safe field
she got into a sheep field

MY mistake

there was totaly no point I could have punished her until I got hold of her - and then that would have been too late as I would be punishing her for being near me - the thing I wanted
I had to work on managment - making sure she we controled if there were sheep about
and training - socalising her to sheep

and the past month she has trotted alongside a field of sheep with no more interest than if it was a field of grass (of course there is a fence between, there is training and being stupid)
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Wysiwyg
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28-07-2011, 04:26 PM
Love that video, it's a good one for sure

Wys
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
if needed like this
but usualy if you keep the pup safely away from them when you cant supervise, distract when needed and make other things more exciting and rewarding the pup sees no interest in a cable that is there all the time and has much more desire to chew the fun things you give them (worked with Mia who chomped my internet cable - she has (touch wood) never chewed anything again since)



again I dont see dealing with an emergency as training, its what happens afterwards where the training is

Get the dog out of the situation - or the situation out of the dog - tell yourself off for putting the dog in a difficult situation that you havent trained him for yet, and then think of a training/manegment plan

for example when I first got Mia I didnt know she was a sheep chaser
I let her off in a enclosed what I thought was a safe field
she got into a sheep field

MY mistake

there was totaly no point I could have punished her until I got hold of her - and then that would have been too late as I would be punishing her for being near me - the thing I wanted
I had to work on managment - making sure she we controled if there were sheep about
and training - socalising her to sheep

and the past month she has trotted alongside a field of sheep with no more interest than if it was a field of grass (of course there is a fence between, there is training and being stupid)
With respect WYS...... I deal with dog aggression cases most days. That is what we do. For a living. Fights are extremely rare but it is my belief that you can not resolve issues with dogs who can not communicate effectively without using other dogs, and this enevitably runs the risk, that some aggressive symptoms will arise. As I said, if they do, I wont break the fight up with a sausage.
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 04:43 PM
usualy if you keep the pup safely away from them when you cant supervise, distract when needed and make other things more exciting and rewarding the pup sees no interest in a cable that is there all the time and has much more desire to chew the fun things you give them (worked with Mia who chomped my internet cable - she has (touch wood) never chewed anything again since)

With respect, in my view using distraction methods can encourage the dog to focus on other things for sure. But it wont necessarily discourage the dog to not want the original thing. Apart from in helping the habit not to form - which is indeed a great way of doing things!

The problem though with some distraction techniques as used by some people as I see it, is this. . . .

I know I would never do what I am describing below, but in an effort to illustrate my concerns with some distraction techniques I will use this as an illustration.......

If one was going to train a dog TO chew a cable

One would allow the interest in the cable to develop, mark the actual incident with a marker (usually a clicker in my case) then follow that marker with a reward.

If someone is going to use distraction to teach a pup not to show interest in a cable.....

One would allow the interest in the cable to develop, mark the actual incident with a marker (usually a friendly voice, or reacll, or similar) then follow that marker with a reward.

Its the same process. How does the dog know if it supposed to touch the cable or not?
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Wysiwyg
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28-07-2011, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
....

Have you seen (as I have) handlers who are now limiting their methods in order to "conform" only to end up struggling with undesirable behaviour or worse still letting it go "unoticed"?
Look, I'm sorry but let's get a few things straight here

I used to use verbal "corrections" (I had very good timing)
I used to physically "correct"
I used to tell dogs off when they'd done something "wrong"

and ya know what? I have far more understanding and control now than I ever did. The same for many of the people I know.

And what are we using now?

Very few if any, ever, verbal "corrections"
No physical "corrections"
Rarely telling a dog off when they've done something "wrong" (because the dogs are trained and so if you have common sense, you can pre-empt or train a Very Good Sit (as Dunbar agrees, this solves a shed load of problems).).


So what is the problem? I think the problem is that most people are NOT TRAINING and DON'T carry on training after their classes. I think there has actually been a thread about this recently on Dogsey

FEW people ever bother to train their dog to advanced levels (by that I mean pet levels, but I mean something like an Emergency Stop or a Chase Recall).

What people are also not doing is laying sensible boundaries but if I can do this, so can they

So let's get rid of this idea that dogs who are reward trained are disobedient, owners are struggling because of the methods, and so on. The only problem I can see is that training is possibly more complicated (maybe?) and so that can mean that owners are less likely to follow it. However, even that I am not sure about, because Lure and Reward (for example) is very simple.

So I dont' know what the problem is, but I really do not think it fair to lay it all on the people who are trying to make it a better world for dogs (and their humans).

Also it might be good if we all looked at the most up to date info by reading that new John Bradshaw book "In Defence of dogs" and then discuss this again

Wys
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
[youtube]



again I dont see dealing with an emergency as training, its what happens afterwards where the training is
Wow. I'm stunned by that. Maybe I have misunderstood your point?

I think that what happens in the first few seconds of a dog performing a new behaviour is the absolute OPTIMUM time when training should occur. There is no habit, there is no previous experience, there is a dog with its mind very much OPEN to a new experience to learn from. I agree later training may be necessary, but those intial seconds are crucial. In my view.

If my dog looks like it might put its paws in a camp fire say, I want to make sure that it really thinks that is not a good idea. I dint want to have to "train" it over a long time period. Dogs commonly (though not exclusively) learn, as we all know, by what happens Very soon after an event. If you dont train immediately after an event then the dog can learn, sometimes permanently, the wrong thing.
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Wysiwyg
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28-07-2011, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
With respect WYS...... I deal with dog aggression cases most days. That is what we do. For a living. Fights are extremely rare but it is my belief that you can not resolve issues with dogs who can not communicate effectively without using other dogs, and this enevitably runs the risk, that some aggressive symptoms will arise. As I said, if they do, I wont break the fight up with a sausage.
Denise, not sure why you are directing this to me?

I've not commented on any fights as far as I recall...

I don't know what you are saying, sorry.

Wys
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post

Also it might be good if we all looked at the most up to date info by reading that new John Bradshaw book "In Defence of dogs" and then discuss this again

Wys
x
Note on that book - if it is the one I am thinking of, then I really didn't see anything very "new" in it. Though I could be thinking of the wrong book. Im a bit dopey like that at times.
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Denise, not sure why you are directing this to me?

I've not commented on any fights as far as I recall...

I don't know what you are saying, sorry.

Wys
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Many apologies, crap eyesight - was Ben Mcfuzzylugs - not sure why I got that wrong. Duh! Many apologies.
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