Jaws - NO not the film

Without doing research on the subject, does anybody readily know why dog breeds have quite different jawlines ?

The long nosed dogs have long and pointed jaws, whilst the snub nosed breeds have wider compressed jaws.

It is all to do with evolution I know, but why the difference ?

Both types are carnivores. What caused the variation ? Something must have or they would all be the same.

I raise this because I now have a Rottie as against my previous dog a GS and the difference is total.

Don`t even whisper it in case he hears, but the Rottie looks like a battered teapot (oops, nearly got the pots mixed up there) as against the beautiful lines and looks of the GS.
John Bull

Selective breeding, not evolution...particularly in the case of brachycephalic breeds.

yep, selective breeding, mainly to meet the needs of the job the dog was bred for.

some(mainly recent years) for cosmetic reasons only.

the dog is very much 'man made'

Also GSDMAD.

OK, it is man that has distorted the original canine, presumably the Wolf, but for what reason was a stunted jawline necessary ?

John Bull

No purpose I'm guessing aside from being aesthetic.

Accepting that breeders over the last 100-200 years have tampered with our canine friends to produce many of the breeds we have today, some for the better, some for the worse, the basic reason for this thread is as follows.

It is well documented for example that the origin of the Rottweiler goes back to Roman times, where they used it for guarding, herding and other spurious activities.

The Roman era extends from approx. 625 BC to 476 AD when it collapsed, roughly just over a thousand years.

The original prototype of the Rottweiler came from a Mastiff type of canine. There were no tampering breeders in those early times enthusiastic to produce some grotesque aesthetic monstrosity for showing at Crufts.

AND that ancient ancestor of the Rottie was snub nosed.

That isolated example extends to many other breeds having the same snub features. Hence my reference to evolution and why nature produced dogs with snub features as against those having long features is quite an authentic point to make.

It is a valid supposition and serves to place this difference with natural evolution rather than manipulating breeders.

So whilst I certainly accept without question that many modern varieties are due to the fantasies of breeders, I am not at all convinced that this is even close to a comprehensive answer to the basic question.

Thus my original post still stands as read.

John Bull

Was it? do you have references for this?

There is a (wonderful, beautiful and famous) statue of a Roman era "mastiff type" dog in the British Museum and isn't 'snub nosed'.

Snub nosed dogs are usually referred to as brachycephalic.... i.e. snub nosed, high domed head, undershot jaw. This one wasn't.

Part of the reason of the Roman invasion - it has been said! - was to get our fabulous dogs of war (among many lesser issues such as politics, produce, land, empire and more people to be slaves....lol). I would be happy to be corrected if I said that the dogs of that time in this country were not brachycephalic - I believe that came in a lot later, when selecting for bull dogs.

If one reads Thomas Hardy's novels, set in the 1850-80's, there are references to (obsolete) Bull Posts in his towns. These were very common, as it was believed that baiting and intimidating a bull before slaughter made the meat more tender. They would tie a bull to a post and set dogs on it for this purpose. Obviously, the dogs that did the job best without getting hurt, were the best and probably unconsciously - or consciously - selected for that.

If I have it right, most bulldogs were used for this purpose, rather than for bull fighting for sport as is commonly supposed.... though I don't doubt people took bets as they watched, (and others may have took sport in deliberate fights for public entertainment, much as bullfighting in Spain.)


PS: Here he is: the most genuine Roman Mastiff you're likely to see in modern times... looks to have a good scissor bite to me!



He's fairly big and on show at the entrance to the new extension to the BLibrary part of the BM... I sat next to him and gave him a big cuddle, and really admired his long-gone creators.

some 'extreme' breeds are very ancient - the Peke and the original King Charles Spaniel were bred with undershot jaws way before dog shows existed - the Italian Greyhound, the Mexican hairless , the Afghan and many many others - are all ancient breeds that are miles away from the original wolf blueprint.

I dont see rotties as snub nosed dogs, they have a shorter wider jaw than many breeds, they have a very strong jaw with scissor bite,

I love the strong features of there face, no battered tea pots in my house, just rotties

Argh Shona , my poor babies are crying now... batttered tea pots indeed