I find out why
basically I dont ask my dogs to do something if I know they wont
Sit is such a basic simple request for them that if they dont when I ask them too then I find out why

One time Ben wouldnt go into a down, when I investigated he had a sore tummy and the floor was irritating it, I moved him to a different surface and he happily complied

If I can see they arnt going to be paying attention to me because their focus is elswhere then I do something to get their focus first

if I mess up and on the rare occasion I ask them when I havent seen that they are focused on something else then I will do something like move away from them a bit so they have to come back to me - then I ask them again and they do it

Not sure what you expected the answer to be - but I do not train with hands on at all, my dogs do not understand what is asked of them if you press down on them

I dont demand a behavior, I make sure it is fully trained in all situations and I ask
and my dogs happily comply

Reg an alpha roll, IMO it is pointless because an aggressive dog is normally so because it is frightened of whatever is making it feel threatened. The aggression is a defence. Alpha rolling if I am not mistaken is designed to intimidate a dog so if you try to intimidate an already frightened dog.. well you see the pointlessness. You are more likely to provoke a panic bite. I may be wrong

I would agree with this. I have only 2 dogs and the big one takes and keeps possession of some things like the sofa and the small dog other things. When it comes to food and dogs outside, the small dog appears to be more dominant of the 2 but when they play, the big dog has the small dog with his tail between his legs on occasion. So the small dog is confident where the big dog is anxious so the small dog can get his way, but if it came to a fight there would be no contest. If the big dog is therefore deemed dominant, that would mean an unconfident alpha which is a contradiction in terms no! ?

Oh please dogs respond to commands for two reasons that they have learnt from humans ie

If you use the reward/clicker way the dogs responds because it knows it will be rewarded for so doing

OR

If you use the force/punishment way(eg saying sit & forcing the dog to sit)it knows it will be forced carry out the behaviour for refusing

Neither way has anything to do with"dominating"your dog it is to do with the method of training the dog to respond to the command/word/action.

No dog has to be trained to do anything, eating, walking etc all this coming by natural behaviour. What you are asking about is dogs being trained to do things on command, unless you have dogs conditioned to do nothing unless commanded(like a certain ex Mexican now US citizen"method of "training"-his dogs do not eat until commanded for example!!)

I think you need a better grasp of English(rather than US English)

I think there's been a misunderstanding here. The colloquialism "S*d all" which is also written as "s*d-all" tends to mean "nothing". It would be the same as saying "darn all".

So Joedee was saying reward is nothing to do with dominance.

The saddest time I ever read about a human being advised to alpha roll their dog was on a forum which was let's say "dominance based" in methods.

Anyway, an Australian Shepherd was being told off (for something it didn't understand) by being alpha rolled, and the dog was grinning, in fear/submission, whatever you want to call it.

However, the owner misinterpreted this and thought the dog was "still being aggressive" and so was advised to then hang the dog. I felt so sick reading it, and it was one of the many appalling pieces of advice Ive seen that was totally unfair and came from the mind of the "trainer" who wishes to physically dominate; any sign of subordination, the dog is severely punished.This was a fairly extreme forum but nevertheless pet dog owners were being advised this awful rubbish.

Just one reason why I am against alpha rolling, and any kind of physical domination (and sadly it is always all about "dominance" as seen/understood/applied by the trainer involved....)

I find this case so sad, because the dog was desperately trying to communicate, did not understand what was asked of it, and was physically continually punished.


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Ah, but I don't see it like that at all , and also that is not my experience.

Socialisation and good training is absolutely key here - that is the difference between an aggressive dog and one who is controllable and not afraid.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/dog-aggression-FAQs

bit here:

Are some dogs naturally aggressive?

Although it might seem that some dogs are born to be aggressive, it is more accurate to say that they are born with inherited tendencies that might, if not controlled, make aggressive behaviour more likely. As aggression is always a response, usually to a threat, there is no reason why a dog cannot learn alternative responses. If these responses are controlled throughout the dog’s life, starting with breeding from well balanced parents and continuing with learning good social skills as a puppy, there is no reason why any dog should learn to use aggression inappropriately. Because of the way some types of dogs have been bred, some puppies will need more careful nurturing than others to ensure that they do not grow up to use aggression inappropriately.

If dogs do not have the right kind of experiences at any time in their life, they can learn that aggression can solve problems for them. Once learnt it can become the dog’s first choice of ways to solve problems. This kind of dog may appear “naturally” aggressive, but they are actually responding to the combined effect of the learning experiences they have had over their lifetime.


Are some breeds of dog more aggressive than others?

There are inherited ways of behaving that are particular to some breeds or types of dogs that make it more likely for individuals to grow up to use aggression where others would not. Because no two dogs are exactly the same, individuals will differ too. For example some breeds are intentionally bred to be more reactive and some to be “wary of strangers”, which might make them more likely to be defensive if approached. In every breed there will be individuals that use aggression inappropriately and others that will not.

Aggression is not a single characteristic, however there are breeds of dogs that have historically been used for specific purposes, such as for fighting dogs or other animals, or for guarding. Whilst these breeds may not be any more likely to show aggression, because of their physical and temperamental attributes if they do show aggression it is likely to have more serious consequences. Persistence in attack coupled with strong jaws can cause serious injuries.

Guarding breeds have been selected to show aggression when threatened, but the levels of threat always have to be learned through experience. If you were to take a puppy from a very defensive guarding breed and bring it up correctly, it would not necessarily show aggression except in the most extreme circumstances. If you were to take a puppy from the least defensive breed and bring it up badly, it could very well turn out to be extremely aggressive in all kinds of circumstances.

Good points, no, especially the last paragraph?

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It is well documented that harsh methods (such as alpha rolling) can cause big problems - for example dogs are often put to sleep due to owners using methods such as alpha rolling, because the dog may learn to fight back and bite! Then what? The poor dog loses its life due to what many believe is an outdated training method. That's not right or fair or even logical.

This is quite an interesting article:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/to_domin...ot_to_dominate

and this real life case shows how holding down/pinning/alpha rolling can lead to relationship problems;

http://www.apbc.org.uk/Dog-Whispering-Can-Backfire

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There is also this article:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/appliance_of_dog_science

"So if we want to know the answer of the best way to train our dog, it seems that science is the best way of finding out. That does not mean other methods will not work. There will always be people that find an approach that works for them. But science shows us which method is the best when we take everything into account."

"So what does science say about the best training methods? Broadly speaking it says using punishment such as jabs in the neck, leash jerks and prong collars do sometimes work, but the problem is they don’t always work. Moreover, they tend to cause side effects such as increased aggression. There are also laws regarding the welfare of animals which cannot be flouted under the banner of ‘training’. By contrast, reward based training methods are associated with working most of the time - but not always - and do not tend to cause side effects such as more aggression and lastly, do not break the laws that protect animals in our care".

"So given the choice, why use a method that may cause more aggression unless you enjoy being bitten and are prepared to risk your dog biting other people or children? Why put yourself at risk from prosecution? Is it really worth the risk when science shows that other methods are not associated with such problems. Dogs don’t have a choice in how they are treated, but dog trainers and dog owners do"

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More about aggressive methods producing problems such as severe bites:

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/ne...se_more_harm_t

Jamtgaard describes another case, an Australian Cattledog mix with severe aggression (lunging, growling, barking) directed at other dogs whenever they came into view, even hundreds of feet away:

"The dog was fine with people and had never been aggressive to people before this bite. The owners were Millan-watchers, and dealt with the dog in a completely punishment-based way. They thought this was what they were supposed to do, but felt uncomfortable and frustrated. They repeatedly tried to physically subdue the dog whenever it was aggressive, a technique they had done for months. They admitted to knowing things weren't improving, but didn't have other ideas. Finally, at PetSmart, the dog growled and lunged, and when the female owner—5 months pregnant at the time—tried to force the dog down, she was bitten on the arm. The bite was tooth depth punctures. That was when they called me."

(If you read further down, there is more info on what happened to this Aussie dog. Using more positive methods, the dog dog aggression was sorted out,the owners were back in control, happier, as was the dog and also they even had a toddler that was safe with this dog who had previously bitten quite severely due to harsh methods).

So ya see, reward based methods sensibly used can resolve many a severe problem

Bite Incidences Come as No Surprise

"Unfortunately, these bite incidences are not surprising. According to a new veterinary study published in The Journal of Applied Animal Behavior (2009), if you're aggressive to your dog, your dog will be aggressive, too".

"Says Meghan Herron, DVM, lead author of the study, "Nationwide, the number-one reason why dog owners take their dog to a veterinary behaviorist is to manage aggressive behavior. Our study demonstrated that many confrontational training methods, whether staring down dogs, striking them, or intimidating them with physical manipulation, do little to correct improper behavior and can elicit aggressive responses."

"Indeed, the use of such confrontational training techniques can provoke fear in the dog and lead to defensively aggressive behavior toward the person administering the aversive action".

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Same study, different article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0217141540.htm

"Of the 140 surveys completed, the most frequently listed recommendation sources were “self” and “trainers.” Several confrontational methods such as “hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior” (43 percent), “growl at dog” (41 percent), “physically force the release of an item from a dog's mouth” (39 percent), “alpha roll”physically -- rolling the dog onto its back and holding it (31 percent), “stare at or stare down” (30 percent), “dominance down” —- physically forcing the dog down onto its side (29 percent) and “grab dog by jowls and shake” (26 percent) elicited an aggressive response from at least 25 percent of the dogs on which they were attempted. In addition, dogs brought to the hospital for aggressive behavior towards familiar people were more likely to respond aggressively to some confrontational techniques than dogs brought in for other behavioral reasons".

“This study highlights the risk of dominance-based training, which has been made popular by TV, books and punishment-based training advocates,”Herron said. “These techniques are fear-eliciting and may lead to owner-directed aggression.”

This is a link to the actual paper:
http://www.friendsofthedog.co.za/upl...ingarticle.pdf

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