APDT & Dog Borstal BBC3

Hi all!
After our interesting debates about the content and behaviour management techniques on 'Dog Borstal' , I wondered if anyone else had seen the comment form the APDT on their website about it (wasn't sure if I could post a link but easy enough to find their site then go into the news bit). The APDT have written to the BBC asking them NOT to commission another series because of the content and methods used on the series....
What do you all think?
A x

I have a friend who is a dog behaviourist, and she heard about what you mentioned, but said another series will be made

I will be a shame if the BBC do not commission another series, I really enjoyed the last one and watched the repeats too.
Mic Martin is great, I would love to work with him, I really appreciate his no-nonsense attitude.
The only thing I didn't really agree with on the last series was some improper use of the rattle bottle and the GR being dragged along the tarmac,( dogs that were with the other trainers) but hey, the dog only needed to stand up I guess.

I quote from my friend ' The series has definitely been booked to record two more series in the summer.'

I have to say, it was certainly thought provoking and got people talking about how dgos should be trained...
My main concern ( apart from the bottle and GR being dragged that have been mentioned already), was Mic Martin ( who I was a supporter of until this happened) floored one of the dogs he was working with. There was a debate on here about whether or not he'd choked it, I asked him on the thread if he had and he never answered, despite logging on a few times afterwards. I don't think flooring and pinning a dog is acceptable and I didn't like his 'worse things happen in pet shops in Europe response to criticism. Dogs are skinned alive in China on a daily basis but that doesn't mean I think it's okay for some one to choke a dog over here because it's mild by comparison.
Just my opinion. I was disappointed and disillusioned at the end of the series...

he didnt choke it, he performed an alpha roll.

Hi Ceiron,
I know he performed an alpha roll, but at the time there was debate on here about whther or not the dog had been choked and made choking sounds. At the time when we watched it, my OH thought he heard the dog choking, as did some people on here. I wasn't sure, so I asked Mik directly. He didn't answer and his silence, to me at least, spoke volumes.

Okay, Mic Martin fan here

I think the guy is awesome. The problem with TV shows is they have to edit a lot of it out. I think Ive mentioned (about fifity times in here....sorry) that up until not too long ago I was living in California, I dont know what its been like in UK for TV dog shows but Ive lost count of the dozens and dozens of trainers over there that have had, if not a TV show then an infomercial that lasts about an hour long, they used to make me nuts....for some reason the large majority all like to give the impression that every dog will do somersaults and stand on its head for a scrap of food or if you just talk nice to them....thats not the reality for all dogs but they get rich of it....and places like the company I worked for there make a very nice living off those same dogs that either dont pass the training class or act like theyve never been on a leash before within a couple of weeks of passing. Its sad. I thought about 30% of the dogs we took on were dogs that had previously failed with some 'big name' trainers....according to the boss it was more like 50%....he rarely advertized and the bulk of dogs we trained were through word of mouth, he was also the only trainer in CA that gauranteed the training for the life of the dog as long as it was with the original owner...or your money back, in over 20 years he never once had to refund anyone.
The reason I mention all this is because the methods used were very similar to what Mic Martin uses....a few variants but the basics are not too different, point being there are a lot of different methods out there, some work great for some dogs but this 'method' works for every dog.

As far as the Weimeraner was conccerned....I watched closely (twice because its been repeated just about a week or so ago), that dog was about a heartbeat away from causing some injuries to the owners friend, I heard a couple of people saying that the dog was only playing....if you watch the dog and you know what your looking for, yes the dog was playing but it was right at that point were the dog itself was thinking about going in for a serious bite, it was only a matter of time and that kind of behaviour only escalates if its not brought under control, it needed to learn that it couldnt get away with it and the way Mic handled it, I wouldve done the same thing if a dog tried to bite me, asking a dog nicely to let go when its already got you usually doesnt work, even more so when that dog is on the dominant side, has been allowed to get away it with for months or longer and you are a stranger to it....I think 'the alpha roll' is misunderstood by a lot of people (people that Ive talked to about it), its not something that is doné with every dog, most dogs dont need it but every so often you get one that needs to seriously be put in its place, it works. I also worked in animal hospitals for over 15 years, there are certain restraint tenchniques that do involve pinning down for both the dogs safety and the vets or techs....or the owners safety, this is perfectly acceptable in the medical field so why do people get so freaked out when its done in training when warranted? Makes no sense.

The retreiver, I dont know, when Pat had the dog and was dragging it she did release the tension on the leash for a brief couple of seconds to give the dog chance to get up, dogs arent stupid, they know what theyre legs are for. The owner however didnt release the tension, at least not from what I could see.
(all just my opinion though)

Every single dog in the show are the type of dogs that end up in shelters or dumped out on the street because people cant be bothered to work with them, owners are the biggest cause of dog attacks and bites because of their own ignorance or worse they treat the dogs like babies and make excuses for thier bad behaviour, Im glad to hear theyre doing another series because its the only dog show that Ive seen in years that really gets the point across that its the owners that are at fault and not the dogs.

I am hoping they include some different types of dogs like dogs that have extreme fear issues or something.

(sorry, got a little carried away there )

sorry to all mic fans, but i think it was all dramatised for tv and well over the top, i think there are so much better ways to train a dog than an alpha roll, well over the top imho

I'm a subscriber to the APDT and was involved in some of the discussions re DB. These are THE pet dog training organisation - I think they know what they are doing and why. I can't unfortunately mention anything that was discussed as it is on a private forum and i have to honour that

RE the above, restraint techniques is one thing, usually done calmly and with reassurance I would hope. I'd think that is quite different myself Dogs can often be trained to comply with lying calmly too. I'd be pretty angry if any vet or nurse literally performed a full alpha roll on my dog. Good grief!

Let's take what you've said Flipper about the Weim - first of all, MM was not using modern techniques. He uses a mix, (and if you do this you will never get the best out of say, the reward based methods). He uses Koehler which can be very hard on a dog and cause stress.

This Weim could have been handled quite differently - I know lots of trainers who would have not jerked or pulled him but behaved differently, calmed him and had him working well for them. He did need something to do and yes the owners were at fault, they had wound him up and let him be in control. Not that difficult to work on though

So, a different trainer would not have got that weim to the stage where he was so inclined to "bite" - so may have avoided that in the first place! If the dogs was biting and had to be stopped, there's no excuse for choking which was what happened I am sure. I recorded this and rewound the video many times. Choking is also what old school military trainers would do.

Let's not forget that choking an animal is I would assume an offence - must be a law against it somewhere, yes? UK police have been punished for similar physical offences against dogs, such as where police dog Acer died becuase he was kicked in the ribs.

This kind of training is unacceptable in a civilsed society.

Good trainers and behaviourists bring dogs like these around without physical abuse.

The other reason alpha rolls are frowned on and make people freak out is because in the wild an alpha roll is offered, if given unoffered it is usually to kill. It has no base in any kind of real canine communication or ethology.

Someone in Australia a while back was advised on a forum to rolll her Malamute who was "dominant" (cough) and he attacked her (maybe he felt she was going to kill him?) and the owner ended up in hospital and the dog was put to sleep. The comment that some dogs may need to be put in their place in this way shows an approach that is not only unfair to dog and owner but which may get someone seriously bitten or killed.

As for the retriever - may as well just comment on this one as I'm on a roll now - I seriously hope he was given x rays as I know of one trainer who has had several dogs in (goldens too!) who behaved in this way and all of them had problem hips. Not always easy to see as sometimes adrenalin (such as when playing) can mask pain. We saw him on holiday later, but he was not walking on concrete but on forest tracks. Anyone who has had an arthritic dog on concrete knows how much more sore it is to walk on that surface as opposed to a softer one.