I've not mentioned anything about CM and his methods??????? I seem to remember not sooooo many pages back, myself and Shona having quite an in-depth discussion about the CM methods I use and so on. I don't remember any nastiness or rudeness either.

I'd love to discuss CM. Trouble is, the antis don't want to discuss (not all the antis I might add) they want to destroy and discredit anything you say that involves CM at any level. How can any healthy discussion take place in that atmosphere?

Please keep the thread on-topic.

Off-topic posts will be deleted shortly - please do not respond to them in this thread.

Thanks.

Not sure that banishment to the kitchen is very Cesar-like at all. I am racking my brains to try and remember an episode where he has used "time out" as a form of punishment.

It is certainly nothing that I would ever consider. It doesn't work with children, and I see no reason why it should work with dogs. Dogs cannot reason like this, they would not know why they are being banished to the kitchen.

Cesar deals with problems as they arise ... immediately. If the dog jumps up, he will step forward, hands on hips, and assertively "claim his space" with his body language. He may use a nudge of the knee (note the word nudge !! ), he may click his fingers and say "ay" in an assertive voice. Tai used to do this, and in a very short space of time using the above methods, he quickly stopped.

Banishment to the kitchen ... no, I would not use this, and I am not sure Cesar would either. Far better to face up to the problem immediately, and get the dog to greet people and other dogs in a gentle, calm and respectful fashion.

ps : sorry Ben, I should have said I am so sorry about your dog

CC, sorry I am not explaining myself as well as I should

Because Lucy was trained using punishments it looked to her owner that she had been 'fixed' unfortunatly she was still unhappy around Mia but her instinct to warn her and us had been suppressed so she went right in for the attack with no warning, before when there were issues there had been warnings and we were able to seperate the dogs before anything much happened, this time it was a full scale silent attack

Thanks for your good thoughts for her, quite a day for both of us!

My experience tells me it does work with children, it did with mine and almost everyone I know who has kids will tell you that when they get to much with each other , the best way to calm them down is to seperate, and give them quiet time.

Dogs I agree, but then they are not children so cant reason out the whys and whatfors of "time out"

Gnasher - the banishment was only one part of it - mainly it was the psssts and claiming the space - all the punishments caused her to supress her telling her owner she was not happy with Mia

I mean that they used a quick fix method that dealt with the behaviour not the reason for the behaviour. In my view that is a CM method and that is part of what has been discussed as the dangers of these methods

This is one of these occasions when I wish I didnt have an real life example to use

Not sure if this is addressed to CC or me or Scarter Mish, but can I answer?

I had a big problem with Tai for months when walking round the fields, with Tai off lead. Because he is such a friendly dog, he would rush over to greet other dogs and humans too, in a very friendly fashion, but too bouncy, too fast, too excitable. He is a very big dog. It is not everybody who 1) likes big dogs 2) can read dogs sufficiently well to know that Tai is a great big softie and 3) certainly in the case of the dogs, a calm, well behaved dog will not appreciate a hairy monster rushing up to say hello, however friendly. In the case of an unsocialised or unbalanced dog, a fearful dog, whatever, it was very undesirable indeed. So Tai needed to be taught not to do this. It didn't happen quickly. I didn't want to put him on the lead, because that was the easy way out. I wanted to teach him not to dash up to other people and dogs, but to wait patiently and gently for a mutual signal of agreement. I did it, but it tooktime. With strangers and strange dogs, he was fine, it was those people and dogs who he knows in particular that I had a job with.

But I did it. Just by staying calm, being consistent, always using the same commands, the same words. If he "broke ranks" and despite my efforts, still dashed across to say hello, then I would immediately put him on the lead (provided I had remembered to bring one, which doesn't happen very often, but luckily he is tall enough to be able to hold his collar without having to bend) , and we would walk back from whence we had come, I would let him off the lead and we would start again. He would then be fine. Until the next time, when the lesson had to be repeated again. It was the only time I struggled with Cesar's methods ... maybe I wasn't doing it right ... but I kept patient, and eventually came through. We cracked it. But it took time.

We had a little mishap the other day though. His number 1 favourite girlfriend is a darling little CKCS. She is absolutely tiny, only about half as much again as big as his head, but she adores him. He adores her. She broke free from her mum the other day, and rushed across the set aside, lead dragging, whilst Tai rushed across from me. It was like Love's Young Dream, they met in a flurry of wagging tail which is as big as her, it was so sweet that I found it hard to be cross with him! You have to make a certain allowance though for the breed. Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies are breeds notorious for not being allowed to run free off lead. Most owners will not allow these dogs off lead. Tai is a mix of the two, and as far as I am concerned, double the trouble. You will often hear CM saying you must remember this dog is a such and such, you must expect him to do such and such.

You are never going to have a Mal cross Sibe that is consistently obedient. They are too independent minded to be thus. Just as you would not expect a fox hound to totally ignore the scent of a fox, or a whippet not to chase a hare or a rabbit, neither is it fair to expect an independent-minded northern breed to be totally obedient.

Hope this answers your question about impatience, Mish !

I'd like to know what the Pro CM-ers think of Ramble's recent link? Gnasher and CC in particular.

And that is the biggest criticism of CM many of us have.

He suppresses a dogs instinct, he does not help them to overcome their issues... just buries it till one day without warning they will explode.

As sadly you have had to find out today.

Hope she gets over it without any repercussions