I'm no trainer or behaviourist, just a dog owner.

I may get shot down for this, but if I had a truely aggressive dog and CM was honestly the ONLY option left, I would rather PTS than let him anywhere near my dog.

That may sound awful, it feels pretty horrible typing that but I wouldn't allow my dog to go through any of those methods CM uses. I don't think it produces calm dogs, only dogs who have shut down and I wouldn't want to live with a dog in that state.

I can quite see that view.

JonBee the dog was OK, except when he was indoors and being alpha rolled (not for any good reason either, another reason I hate the physical dominance view).

The dog was afraid, and from what has been posted, was not improved by CMs techniques which included being cruel to the dog by cutting off his air supply. That is by definition torture, no excuses.

So - it didn't do any good.
The dog stayed the same (I'd suspect, actually, following the laws of learning, it got worse....)

Ultimatley there was NO RESULT.

Had the owner got in a decent behaviourist, who worked with real knowledge, perhaps the dog would have improved - I'd bet it would have been a lot better than what happened on the show.


"JonBee, muzzled, is lifted off the ground by a choke chain, a procedure known as "stringing up". Prior to this, the dog had not only shown no signs of aggression but had been attempting to avoid interaction with the star completely. "

"What critics are primarily concerned with, however, is the psychological stress that dogs are placed under during the show. Many dogs that offer avoidance behaviors at the start of the show are often pushed to the point of aggression.

One disturbing example is JonBee, a Jindo who is forced to lie on his side. After a significant and dangerous struggle (during which the dog appears to have urinated), the dog finally gives up and allows himself to be rolled over. However, the dog is not relaxed. Quite the opposite. The dog exhibits all of the signs of stress listed in the previous article, and is exhibiting a phenomenon known as learned helplessness, sometimes referred to by trainers as "shut down."

Etc.
When you realise the dog was not doing anything but trying to avoid CM and feeling fearful it just makes it all worse. The answer to CM is so often physical domination.

One dog died a few years ago, a young GSD, when a trainer did a CM on it. Not saying they were copying CM but the physical domination method killed the young dog, who was could not submit and kept trying to rise - in the end it just died of being flattened by the trainer.

It's time we really spoke out against all this cruelty. I'm sick of it.

Sorry I'm on a roll now but the point is that for that dog as for many others there are alternatives. The dogs are rarely really on their last legs and Jindo was no red zoner - a silly term anyway, but of course catchy. Red zoner, my foot!

Wys
x

Aside from the close minded approach you take, let me point out the false dichotomy - the only two options were not kill it or have Cesar abuse it. The owners never tried anything other than dominance and they confirmed this. They wanted to "dominate" and have the animal "submit" because this is a lot easier than training. I view the people who take dominance as a way to interact with their dogs as intellectually lazy and in love with quick fixes. They don't want to put in the time and effort to train and educate their dogs.

And as I pointed out all of Millan's violence did nothing and the owners eventually got rid of the dog.

Gnasher, by your own admission your dog tried to prevent your OH taking his chew away while chained up outside and was hit for it. Is this what you mean by `showing the dog who`s boss (aka being alpha aka CM methods)?
Please enlighten us to the actual CM methods you use, and how they are received by your dog.

DITO, I also am very intrested to know

or of course they could just be bullies and enjoy the power. Sad really.

"violence" - perlease...............think you might be getting a little dramatic now............

Well, personally, I'd employ the help of Kermit the Frog if there was any chance of avoiding having one of my dogs pts!!!!!

Im not so sure,

as a trainer I tend to see through the parts that are cut out,

I have said it before, but here goes,

in one episode, his nice light brown boots were covered in slavers, he was trying to get this dog down and keep it down in the programe, the bit they will not have shown, is him standing on the choke chain with the lead up and under his foot using all his weight on the choke chain round the dogs neck to keep it down...

it was a horrid way of training dogs years ago {used by some} I have seen a person do this when I first started training, its not nice...

some see what the programe wants them to see, some see the missing bits as well.

To be fair, Shona, you are filling in the missing bits the way you see them but it isn't fact is it. I just cannot believe that some people think CM is VIOLENT!!!! Do the dogs (such as Daddy) look like they are scared of Milan??? Definitely not. You don't train dogs into very well-behaved dogs by fear and intimidation! CM does use some "dominance" methods, that doesn't mean he is "violent" to the dogs and because his boots were messy doesn't mean he's abusing the dogs off-camera

To be honest, with some of the accusations made on Dogsey about CM, I'm surprised Azz hasn't been approached because some of it is most certainly libellous An opinion on methods is one thing but to accuse a trainer of violence is quite serious, in my mind