The dogs i use are malinois not GSD's Although i train other dogs to
last year Amstaffs, rottweiler and also 1 gsd.
And Minihaha i used the word wrong as an indication for a device that shouldn't be used. The question was for me to understand why a little chain with some metal discs about an inch in diameter could be considered a thing not to use.
As for your comment on the one percent; Yes theoretical they can be beating the crap out of your dog but do you really think that you can get these results by "beating the crap out of your dog"
I've 1 malinois for whom a loud voice is a severe correction and i have trained an Amstaff as a military attack dog where it was almost impossible to get trough his drives. (This was a dog i trained because i was asked to and i would never consider this dog for bite training all together)

Greetings

Johan

I have used training discs on two dogs, both were dogs that dived onto stuff and grabbed it if it fell or hit the floor. This was simply not acceptable, for one I dont like thieving dogs, but more importantly my mother had Rhumatoid arthritis and often would drop her tablets while trying to hold them correctly, I would never risk the dogs getting them and they never have, the discs were used a couple of times when the dogs (Parlsey and Connor) were young and would shoot up if anything dropped onto the floor, after two or three times of me saying leave and mom dropping smarties or similar on the floor, they never tried to get anything again, I have no issues at all with these discs in this type of situation.

Dawn the issue was not if the use of discs is or is not acceptable, Johan chose to select the discs from a list of methods and items which the APDT do not use posted in another thread to illustrate the APDT do not sanction the use of the alpha roll in training sessions organised by their trainers.

I know of instances where training discs have been used successfully on certain dogs who did not associate their use with the person using them . This is not the same as using the discs routinely in training classes where some owners are apt to get the wrong idea and to use training aids inappropriately because they have seen them used previously.

This is true for ALL devices including clicker

Last year a woman came to me with her 9 month old dog. The dog was one bundle of nerves, completely confused. Reason the woman used the clicker wrong. the dog didn't understand what the woman wanted. I took the dog, literally, for a walk around the block and when we came back she followed like a trained dog did her positions and had a good recall. Not that i'm dog whisperer. The dog new what to do it was only a question of communication. 2 times sit and little pressure on the hind quarters, a little biscuit and the third time she sat as an adult dog. tight training tools and right way off communicating

Greetings

Johan

I have to admit, dont know a lot about your sport, but looking at your video and your links, it seems to be a combination of "obedience" agility" with a bit of "bite work" thrown in,.....but all "Machoed up"

Macho men, with Macho devices .. playing Macho games.. BUT at he cost of the dogs.

You say , the dogs need extreme devices to control the extreme temperament.

Why not breed out the extreme, allowing more humane methods to be used in the training for your sport.

After all, ALL the above disciplines in their own rights have thousands of followers doing just that, gaining tittles enjoying the challenge of their given sports.....yet they dont have to resort to abusing the dogs to get there

Really well put. It just doesn't make sense to me to breed dogs like this on purpose, when you can get the same results (Surely) from "softer" dogs but using kinder methods.

Am I right in thinking it was John Fisher who invented training discs and who was the founder of the APDT?

It always amuses me how lots of people think that most people are going to use training devices the wrong way

If the APDT don't use any aversive methods at all they must find it difficult to train some dogs?

As far as I know, yes

The APDT themselves have moved on over the years as I suspect John Fisher would have. I suspect he'd not recommend them now, and certainly not in class situations

Wys
x

There is a dog behaviourist franchise that use a chain in the same way as you are supposed to use training disks. They hurl the chain on the ground when the dog exhibits unwanted behaviour.
Apart from the problem of timing - and the average pet owner has the timing of the average church clock (a bit rusty) - I don`t like the idea of telling owners to throw things.
I`ve not got a problem with making it clear to a dog that certain things are not acceptable, but I can`t see that disks would be needed. Since they need to be used in a controlled exercise you are setting the dog up to fail.
I`m sure that in the right hands they may be a useful tool for a dog who is not nervous but who is pushing his luck, but I don`t think they are good for the ordinary owner.