I want affection but I don't want a dog so badly behaved/so unsocial it can't cope without its hand being held.

PLenty, I use a lot of tehniques, just find e collars useful.

E collars as I use them are pretty modern btw.

Adam

My experience is they don't, e collars work and they work easily! This takes frustration out of it for the owner.

Adam

Learning therory!!!

One reason these competing dogs get so hyped is the frustration of the delayed reward of that lead grab at the end anyway, e.g. obed dogs aren't just highly focused because they love what they are doing, they are highly focused looking and waiting for the reward.

It's the same principle of training by holding back a security dog from a tempting "criminal" before releasing it, to build the aggression (or what you would term the drive), via the frustration of delayed reward - the bite,

Adam

I remember now.

When this first was bandied about forums, it was claimed that dogs who were trained positively, were in fact not . It was claimed they were being trained via negatve punishment (ie the removal/witholding of a reward such as a toy or food).

Thus the "idea" of stress (bad stress)... as dog was supposedly very upset it knew an owner had a sausage in their pocket, or a toy.

Skinner made a clear difference between positive reinforcement and negative punishment, it cannot go:

Behaviour -----> dog feels negatively punished.....> dog is positively reinforced

It DOES go:

Behaviour ........> dog is positively reinforced.

However if anyone knows different and has the science to prove it, do say

Wys
x

The behaviour becomes its own reward.

In work done with clickers and handicapped kids they learnt to clear up and in the end would do it as rewarding activity in itself.

Of course in Adams world you'd give them a shock when they refused to co operate----as they do at one appalling place in the US.

rune

You (claim to) have a degree and still don't see this point? I know they talk about dumbed down education but really ...

Your point was very clear!

No, you'd rather it was bullied into submission until it becomes a shadow. Techniques and methods? You do not know any, other than punishment.

You've failed - after a huge number of posts, nothing has changed. You pitch yourself as a 'trainer' but I would not trust you with my child's toy pull-along dog.

Do you have a reference for it please????

And once again, that says it all. An apparent quick fix and never mind the consequences.

That is the attitude of a lazy owner/trainer who can't be bothered to/isn't capable of forming a proper relationship with a dog and train it humanely.

God bless the owner who isn't frustrated, eh? But never mind the poor dog.

Yes wys - good point - Adam is missusing learning theory here anyway
Punishment is something that makes a behaviour less likely to happen
so what behaviour is being supressed by me witholding a ball the dogs didnt know was there, didnt know they were going to get (and BTW I chuucked it before they reached me)

and nope the methods you are describing are not 'modern' it is a twist on the ear pinch forced retreve

you are using positive punishment (zapping when they are not comming back) and negative reward (stopping zapping when they do what you want)
VV sad

and what do I do if my dogs dont come back - I look at what I did wrong, how the situation was more than they could cope with, and I increase my training, reduce the distractions and be more vigalent of the surroundings when I call them back
Of course a not fully trained dog will not come back each and every time if you call them in a situation they are not ready for - its my job not to put them in that situation

even using a shock it will take a few repititions for a dog to understnad that 'sit' means 'put your bum on the floor in any situation, no matter where the handler is, no matter if the nasty shock device is not strapped to my privates'

Your experience is lacking then Adam. One of your gurus introduced a guy and his dog to remote training. Some time later on the madmans own forum, desperate owner was worried sick because the collar was broken and he couldn't find a replacement quickly with a battery that would last 12-14 hours and would charge in the few hours the dog slept. The desperation of his post was clear. The dog wasn't trained, it was controlled by shock and without it the guy was obviously afraid of his dog.

The forum, like many others the idiot set up was taken down by the forum hosts so I can't link to the post. That's the only pity of it being taken down because it was a very clear message to anyone considering embarking on the route of remote training - DON'T!!