Hmmm, could you say what was so awful about this seminar because I attended it (as an observer) and did not see anything horrible happen to any of the dogs?

(That is not to say I am a supporter of E collars, but as I was present during the whole weekend and a) there were very few dogs used and b) of those not all had e collars on!

In my opinion the dogs did not look happy. I did not watch the whole thing, but do not like seeing dogs with e collars whether or not it is all of them.

Hmmm, that is very different from saying "it was awful".

I see a lot of unhappy dogs in all sorts of situations, the fact that you dislike or do not agree with e-collars is not the same as implying that something horrible happened (over and above the fact that you believe having e-collars on is awful).

I did not imply that I saw anything horrible happen other than the dogs being shocked. In my opinion I found it awful.

IME that is much too much of a generalisation, of both handlers and dogs.

So much depends on what motivates each dog, to what degree and how that reward, whatever it is (food, toy, game, handler attention), is presented by the handler.

In some cases a very high value food with a very food motivated dog can be counter productive as the dog gets too focused on the food to slow down and consider what behaviour is required for the pay off (i.e. the reward is too valuable)- yes that is poor training to get into that position but it does happen with novice handlers so it is incorrect to say it doesn't occur.

As in that example, at the risk of being lynched, I would agree that dogs can get stressed and frustrated by reward training, under certain circumstances and at certain times, as confirmed by Professor Mills (see post #444).

On the other hand a monotone, low-energy trainer can present toys, games or handling in a very non-enthusing manner, to a dog who may be predominately food motivated - again a bad fit training wise that fails to motivate the dog sufficiently, but it does not infrequently happen.

How often do trainers have to coach owners how to interact at the appropriate energy level with their dog for what they are aiming to achieve at that point in time, which sometimes is to settle the dog, e.g a stay, and at other times to produce contained energy which can then be focused e.g tightly focused accurate heel work or a fast but accurate agility round?

Not all, but many, competition dogs e.g obedience, agility, flyball ( much less so gundogs) are worked liked a coiled spring, or pressure cooker with them "boiling over" after they have finished their controlled performance, which is fine in that situation but it is not always an ideal way to train a domestic pet, with an inexperienced handler.

My point being there is no one way that is suitable for every individual, in every situation. Horses (or dogs), for courses, as the saying rightly goes.

but when your training for agility where that is required,you do not train the same dog in the same way for other things

That is probably quite stressful for the dogs!

In schutzand isn't it often advised to calm the dog (variety of methods) after drive work to reduce stress?

Reward based emthods always start from the basis of negative punishment state anyway (no reward) which acts as a mild stressor.

Adam

There is a view that it can be helpful to allow a dog an object to chew on as one way to de-stress after various high energy activities, and of course as a distraction/de-stressor for situations such as separation anxiety.

In several cases these hyped up competition dogs get to leap for, grab and tug on their lead as a reward/de-stressor outlet.

Tupacs2legs I agree with you, as far as experienced trainers are concerned but pet owners do not find it so easy to switch their dogs on and off and in the example above, where e.g. a lead grab and tug is the finish cue/reward IMO this is not appropriate for pet owners, who often are already having problems with lead grabbing dogs when they approach a trainer for help

Good grief, is this thread still wobbling on???

Snorri

It stopped for a bit then AP came back - where you been? LOL