Yes - but he point being that this was a dog to dog reactive dog, that CM was Parallel walkng with a dog he was know to react to, ignored all the stess signals the dog was giving and then provoked him into a reation.

Whether the dog was red zone not - I do not know -but he certainly gave a lot of waring about wha was going to happen - all of which CM ignores - not sure if he did this deliberately or not - either way it was a bad move.

not condoning his methods but my dog is dog aggressive and i have to walk him around other dogs, some situations are unavoidable(although this had obviosly been set up) in real life it happens and if this was a dog that wasn't on tv it would probably be PTS, if cesar helped surely it can only be a good thing? i have been using positive reward methods since my boy was 4 months and he is now 14 months, it is working but very very slowly, these people are probably at the end of their tether walking a dog like this every day???

Dosent matter if it was a wolf dog or what - any reactive dog would react in the same way

It is really unfair to disciplin an animal that has no no idea what the rules are

In the wolfdog clip there is also the other dog to think of (dont know if it is on the clip posted here) at the end of the episode the poor collie had its tail all tucked up under its tum and was clearly unhappy with being used as the stooge in this situation
CM looks at it and asks the owner if its always like that!!! ermm no your 'training' method did that

In the chicken episode the chicken was scared and a duck was bit

None of these things are in any way acceptable ways of training
Its not just a little mistake, it is cruel and he should be charged for that behaviour!

I am sorry you are having to deal with a d-d aggressive dog - not only do I work with dog with this issue - I also have one - who I have worked with - for the most part- with positive methods. She has taught me a hell of a lot - not least that I have to watch her body lanugage as she will always tell me what she is going to do. Once I sussed this life became so much easier.
While you are looking for potential difficult situations you stop paying attention to the dog.

The point is - that if CM had been watching the dog, this situation would have been avoidable - so either a) he was trying to provoke the dog into this reaction, as it is more extreme and therefore better for the cameras, or b) he did not understand the behaviour the dog was exhibiting and got himself into a situation he had not reckoned on.
Neither senario gives me much faith in the man.

There are many behaivorists who deal with this kind of dog in a positive way - so the only reason the dog should have been pts would be if the owners had not sought any help, which does happen, but this in no way condones the way that he dealt with this dog IMO.

yes i def agree and sadly this is what happens when people aren't given the facts on positive training and some dog owners are lazy, it makes me so mad that i take my dog everywhere, avoiding situations he wont like and friends have dogs that go no where and you could do anything with them!! typical..lost my point...i dont agree with this method, i can just see how after the amount of aggression this dog was displaying cesar would have been hurt and the dog would've been very stressed, the situation was calm in seconds, my dog even with reward based training has in the past stayed stressed after seeing a dog for hours afterwards.

I think there are better ways to calm a dog than pratically suffocating it!

I would suggest that (without wanting to sound offessive) you have not found a sucsessful way of rewaring your dog and releasing the tension - with Tass I had to use a tug game ( or what my friend calls the Chillout game).

Goodness...I dislike doing multiple quotes but you guys really pack on the pages to these threads.lol. Not that theres anything wrong with that

I'm not arguing about whether it works or not. I agree, it definitely works, but it is still ineffective. If you want a dog to stop pulling on a lead, you can cut off his legs...that works doesn't it?You want a dog to stop barking you can debark it, does that work? Yes, Is it effective or humane? Nope. Now I'm not saying that you guys condone this, its to illustrate that some things may work but may still lack the effectiveness to do the job right.

Seeing how you added this, then I would question your bond with your dog....

I'm not saying that all dogs have to go nuts over pats (mine doesn't) but it should provide some reinforcement.

Again with CM...why is always about CM and the 'antis', theres nothing wrong with that dude, just the methods he uses...goodness sake we can talk just as much about the techniques that Brad Pattison uses if you'd like? (they aren't all THAT different)

Treats can definitely become a crutch for training if used incorrectly. If you hold out a piece of food and call to your dog and he comes for the food...thats a bribe. If you call to your dog, he comes, and you give him a treat from your pocket (which he didn't see before) thats a reward.

For a bit more info on this see: http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/it-bribe-lure

I'm sure you guys in the UK are acquainted with Dr. Ian Dunbar

I hate to bring it up...but I wonder how that incident happened with him being sued for leaving a dog on a treadmill. While I don't think this makes CM a bad person, it does discredit your arguement about him not doing it.

Wow....do you just water down everything CM does. Being a fan is one thing but being close minded is quite different. If the dog was strangling himself and whatever else you say, then why are vets all around upset by it?

See: http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/...illan.htm?nl=1

Not only does this say something about his methods but it also says alot about you....

Not to bash on you personally...but you keep saying that. This only demonstrates your lack of confidence and lack of understanding of the theories behind canine behavior and behavior modification. If you don't know, then go learn, and come back and make an informed decision, not what you think.

Wow...I never thought of that...but you are so right! Brilliant!!! But you know leaders that use force also don't remain leaders. The following paste is my synthesis of articles written from a couple of behaviorist and biologist:

"The dominance model doesn’t work because in the wild wolf leaders are seldom aggressive.

In the wild, the leading wolves are seldom aggressive, there is no need to be. As any parent would, the male and female breeders (or what would incorrectly be called the ‘alphas’) are completely sure of their status and they know they don’t need to go around bullying everyone else to make sure they know too. On the occasion where true dominance hierarchies are formed (such as in captivity) the leaders that use force to back up their status are usually quickly disposed of. This is because aggressive behaviors are a waste of energy, energy that they could well be using for the benefit of the pack such as hunting. Peace is maintained in packs through submissive behavior rather than dominant behaviors. For example, if there is a bone that two members want, the less assertive wolf (most likely one of the younger offspring) would willingly give it up to the other wolf (such as an older sibling or parent); instead of being a fight (waste of energy) the peace is maintained through an act of submissiveness. This is why peace at home can’t really be maintained through constant bullying.

It has been noted that in large packs which consist of more than one breeding pair, the middle ranked wolves may occasionally bicker to establish themselves as more dominant; however the breeding male and female still don’t bicker because they are secure about their position, and neither do the lower ranking wolves as they know that others are higher ranked than they are. Taking this into consideration, what does this tell you if you are constantly having to ‘establish your dominance’ over your dog? You are belittling yourself because a leader doesn’t bicker, not only that but you are giving your dog a reason to engage in even more squabbling because you seem insecure about your position as head of the family."

To say the least...thats anthorpomorphic...at worst that statement shows a lack of understanding of TRUE hierarchies.

There are people here who have rehabilitated dog aggressive dogs. Would you try their methods?

The key to rehabilitating dog aggressive dogs is to find out why they are aggressive. Much of the time it is usually a fear reaction, in which case if you reduce the anxiety/fear you can CCDS the aggression away. Easier said than done I know...

as ive said before...imo if you have got to the point that you are physicaly challenging your dog,you have already lost.
and to add re 'packs' my little lurcher(18kg) was the so called 'pack leader' in my house(siberians,bc,n.i),it was all done with dignity he lived 17 years and never had to fight in his whole life,never wasted the energy!