Sorry if that is upsetting but it is fact.

I'm not saying punishment is good. Far from it. But it is worth knowing that just because someone uses operant conditioning, it doesn't mean it's all treats and praise. Some trainers rely heavily on punishment. And if punishment is to be applied correctly then that is how it is applied. Else it becomes systematic and constant abuse.

That is insane. To punish a dog for being scared is the wrong route. Unfortunately, there are trainers/behaviourists that put a negative onto a negative. Even for a confident dog that gets in dog fights the method is riddled with fallout.

No it`s not fact. It`s a theory.
And one I would dispute.
I own gundogs who are notoriously sensitive. (GSPs). Punish one severely and he will shut down. Therefore the theory is blown apart.

I didn't say it was the correct route but if you punish a dog and he shuts down, as far as the science goes, the punishment has worked! Punishment is to decrease the frequency of future behaviour.

If you set the punishment at it's lightest it's not going to work is it? So the punisher goes up and notch and that fails. It is far more abusive to keep working up the scale.

So did you use the collar in the end then, TangoCharlie?

Although I noticed you don't have a Toller listed in your 'Dogs owned' part of your profile anymore, so you got rid of the dog instead?

I'm not going into it now. Just don't assume anything.

A quick point about spray collars, they do only work by fear/surprise the manufactures instruction video demos the fear base with all the dogs & a puppy, their official instruction video is online just google, masterplus roger mugford, link, http://tinyurl.com/masterplus

The reason you have to do this with spray collars is the stimulus is startling as opposed to other tools were the stimulus is less intense.

Adam

Did you get rid of the dog before or after you used the collar?

No - you said it was fact.
It isn`t .
I thought you said you`d studied to be a trainer?
So - if you`re training a dog to retrieve and you are so harsh the dog refuses to do anything that`s a good result is it?

Is this yet another of Adam`s little friends?
I didn`t know spray collars had different levels so I`m reporting your posts as they appear to contravene a recent rule change.

Im not reading the whole rest of the thread so sorry If I am repeating
With this type of problem I would be looking at lots of other things 1st

Often dogs are eating poo because the poo is high in protein because dry food contains quite alot of undigestable protein

Ben was terrible for this - but I noticed he stopped trying to eat his own or Mias once he was off the dry food

vet checks and diet checks are the first port of call
managing the situation by clearing up right away and even muzzling while sorting out some training so the habit is broke

Pinapple in the food is supposed to help as well if its just their own

TC I know you like to look into all the science and find all the available methods but as a trainer I would really advise trying the positive way if you are ever in this situation
If we, who are trying to be trainers, give up and go for the quick fix - then we cant expect better of the GP

and as I see it the risk of shutting down my dog is too much, I would prefer just to live with what is actually a totaly natural behaviour and only distastful to us humans