i just feel abit like a "bad mum" who cant control her boy
i will make him a good dog and then maybe he can have his ball when he is being good and there arent any other dogs around..im with you,i dont like to deprive him of it which is why he hasnt been muzzled on previous walks.its not true what they say " i will teach an older dog a new trick !!"

i think the high choppy wag means general excitement, arousal, adrenaline. ... the dog would normally dive in quickly, which could go either way depending on the circumstances.

the half mast slow side to side tail means the dog already has the emotion of concern, worry, and discomfort.
this dog has probably slowed down or stopped and keepong a beady eye out.

I am really sorry how things come across via email... I am not a nasty person but at my advanced years have learned nothing to be gained by pussy footing about on any subject, with the problem you are having especially.

Yes, I am afraid I have to stick by what I said.... I really dread coming across dogs with that sort of unpredictable aggressive streak. My own dog is only 5 but has spondylitis, she would put up a bl---dy good fight though if a dog like yours grabbed her round the neck and I fear even with her constant pain, your dog would come off worse. Although Labradors too can be agressive I know.

The mere fact that your dog has done this for NO REASON, must make you realise he could do this at any given time.

I witness only once in my years with handling dogs at my kennels, a SERIOUS dog fight and it took two men to try an separate them, one man was injured but as neither dog would give in and apparantly one dog had had its ear nearly ripped off the men had to use brute force to get them apart. The owner of the attacked dog sued the one that instigated it for full reimbursement of vets bills which eventually ran into the hundreds..... the noise when these two were fighting although in the distance will never be forgotten by me.

My advice to you would be to keep the Lab on a lead, dogs like this can never be trusted and I am very very sorry to say are in most cases a liability.

Dogs change as they grow up and many push their luck around 1 - 2 years and what was once a kindly youngster will exhibit traits, most of which we can deal with but unpredictable aggression actually mouthing another dog aggressively MUST NOT BE TAKEN LIGHTLY. I forsee trouble ahead for any dog that behaves in this way.

Sorry to be blunt but as I say why pussy foot around, the facts are there and if this dog were mine I would realy be concerned and worried so I know how you must feel and I am sorry for you.

Good luck with the dog anyway, would suggest a dog behaviourist as first call.

Take care Maureen

Whose 'facts' are they then?

And how do you know "its for no reason"?
Were you there?

I used to work in a kennels and handle packs of dogs too,
but typing stuff in capitals doesnt make it more true - or yourself more knowledgeable - in fact it makes it less convincing, as you are trying too hard.

We can all be blunt, or more to the point, lack empathy or consideration, but being old isnt really an acceptable excuse.

agreed!

...there was a reason..you just dont know what it was(yet)

[QUOTE=Maureen19;2012251]

The mere fact that your dog has done this for NO REASON, must make you realise he could do this at any given time.

Of course there`s a reason. Since we weren`t there we didn`t speculate is all.

I witness only once in my years with handling dogs at my kennels, a SERIOUS dog fight

The majority of dog interactions are graduated. From stiffening at a distance to physical confrontations. The actions described are fairly low on the scale. Have a read up about dog body language.

My advice to you would be to keep the Lab on a lead, dogs like this can never be trusted

Wrong, sorry. There is always a way to retrain a dog.

Dogs change as they grow up and many push their luck around 1 - 2 years and what was once a kindly youngster will exhibit traits, most of which we can deal with but unpredictable aggression actually mouthing another dog aggressively MUST NOT BE TAKEN LIGHTLY. I forsee trouble ahead for any dog that behaves in this way.

All dogs go through the Kevin stage. ALL of them. Not just Labs. That is why we train them. There are a lot of good training books to help - I recommend The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson because it covers behaviour as well and will axplain dog `thinking`.

Agree with the comments from Kruse about the tail wagging, a wagging tail is not always a friendly dog on the other end of it

Yes, totally agree.
People don't always realise how much effect on dogs a ball or chase toy can have. The adrenalin levels get higher and higher and the dog is much more likely to be reactive, in some cases and with some dogs.

I never really understood about this, until my own very well socialised BSD started to occasionally jump on other dogs. I could not see a pattern or a trigger, it was odd and worrying because of this, as it was unpredictable.

However, once I worked it out (took me a while!) I realised that it was the chase toy. (to clarify: not toy possession, any dog could pick up her toy. It was the general over stimulation and excitement the chasing gave her). I left it at home and instead concentrated on more calming training, (fun, like searches for food and occasionally a toy). I reintroduced the chase toy slowly after a six week period and just used it less on walks, and sometimes did not take it at all, and this did the trick

It's worth thinking a bit laterally. Also, try to see if there are any triggers - is it all male dogs, both sexes, what?

And I would try to get rid of the ball for at least 4-6 weeks, just do other stuff instead and do general fun pet obedience, using food rewards and praise (but remember for most dogs, praise isn't a high value reward).

Agree keeping under control on a long lead and harness may be best, be aware, as you no doubt are, that other dogs can be upset for along time if they are attacked (that's not saying your dog is horrible, just that "aggression" can have effects on both dogs concerned, but you know this )

If you wish to try for a reputable behaviourist to help, I'd suggest:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/regions


Wys
x

Nearly all dogs fall out with some dogs at some point during their lifetime. As most car owners fall out with other car owners at some time.

You don't get on with everyone you meet throighout your lifetime - I don't get on with everyone I meet during my lifetimes. It doesn't automatically make us all aggressive or potential killers!

it is difficult without seeing this dogs normal social interactions to know exactly what is going on or what the reasoning might be, which is why local help may be of use.

There are very very few dog that are trully agressive and a 3 year old dog that has had two incidents of behaving in a way that is socially unacceptable (to humans at least), in my view is not a real issue. Sure it is unpleasant for the other dog owner and no doubt unpleasant human human altercations may gave occured. But that doesn't make the dog a beyond help aggression case. It makes him a normal dog and gives motivation for the owner, I hope, to learn more about dogs - they are just so fascinating -its hardly a hardship.

But putting a normally sociable dog on lead for ever more is not an answer - that is one of the main reasons in my experience why dogs end up with real sociablity issues - over reaction from owners.

I deal with "dog aggression" cases every week in my work. And of all the dogs I have seen, I have only really come across a couple that where really capable of causing harm and even these where rehabbed to the point of being off lead with other dogs.

Dog aggression, in my view, is the most misundertstood dog behaviour of all. Nearly everything a dog does, is designed to AVOID conflict with other teeth! if the lab had indeed intended real harm, then within seconds there would have been sever injury.

I have seen REAL dog fights - I owned two bitches who fought - and believe me, it only takes a couple of seconds to tear another dog to shreds if a dog really intends harm. If no harm is done then the dog is merely "communicating".
Ok "communicating" might be noisy and look horrid, but it is only communicating. WHAT it is trying to communicate and WHY, is what the owners must come to understand.

If I can help in any way then please let me know. We deal with aggression cases from all over the country, often cases who have been deemed beyond help by other trainers and have numerous teaching dogs.

This makes just perfect sense to me (as do all of your posts!!!). I suppose our dogs are just as entitled to tell another dog off, as we are to tell another person off for whatever reason, and I think I actually know the reason with mine now, purely because I've been putting her ONlead everytime we meet a strange dog, and I deliberately stand there and watch every move and I have learned so much since I've been doing that, and I've also learned, that as long as the other dog approaches in a proper manner, then everything is fine, my dog accepts that and is more than friendly and willing to play, but if they don't, then they get told off, and I've now actually seen the other dog show the respect demanded, purely because I still have my dog onlead and no squabble has actually ensued, so I for one, am going to keep at it this way.

I totally agree with your statement that by keeping what WE deem to be an aggressive dog onlead, this could escalate tenfold, so that's not going to happen here either.

Although I've never actually seen a real dog fight, I'm sure you are right in what you say, that severe damage can be done in seconds, if that is their intention, but thankfully, it's always been just a lot of noise here, no teeth, no marks! I do know, that when a dog means business, it will always go for the back legs, to render the dog incapacitated, and that makes sense too doesn't it, I'm sure they must do that in the wild?!

Keep at it tobydog and keep both yours and the other dogs safe and you should manage to get over this. Good luck!

Id just liek to make it clear...... I'm not suggesting that everyone whose dog is bolshy and grumpy and shows unfriendly gestures should be allowed to just run around freely though reeking havoc on nervous and helpless indivuiduals.

A sensible approach needs to be taken to ensure such animals are socialise appropriately with suitable individuals and owners who are happy for this to proceed. And dogs which can not be trusted to be polite to strange dogs, should be well managed and where need be kept on lead - everyone and everydog has the right to enjoyopen spaces without altercations.

For instance. Both of my collies are used most days to teach puppies good manners, teenagers to play or play appropriately and the older bitch is used in the rehab of severe aggression cases.

This means that if we meet a bolshy adolescent lab on teh park mine will tell it off! In no uncertain terms. If the dog is polite and mature they will pass by respectfully or request play. I have to decide what to do when dogs approach as I understand that not all owners are aware that my dogs telling their bolshy teenager off, is actually probably quite helpfull to their teenager. They might see my dogs as killing machines and write about them on a forum!

My rule is, if oncoming dog is on lead, i put mine on lead to relax other owner. If oncoming owner and dog are off lead and relaxed, I leave mine off. If oncoming dog looks like it will pee mine off - I will advise owner that my dogs will tell theirs off for unruily behaviour, I will call my dogs in close., to allow the other owner time to decide what to do with their own dog.

I always try to ensure that my dogs do not go round "teaching" other dogs, unless the owner of the other dog would like that. I do that by ensuring that my recall or distance stop is good and by staying alert. I also use swerve around manouvres, which teaches my dogs and theirs about appropriate, helpfull, avoidance behaviour.

Remembering at all times that head to head meetings are wholly unnatural for most dogs and will in nearly all instances force the dogs to communicate who has right of way or whose intentions must be understood. Walking ALONGSIDE other dogs is by far the best way to teach good manners and play skills.