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MichaelM
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14-07-2010, 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I think to be fair, you'd have to try it around your neck and also (I know this sounds funny but...! ) allow yourself to experience the training as your dog would.
I think the "offer" was pretty generous. It's certainly more than I was willing to experience before getting him castrated!


Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I.e. you cannot replicate his emotions when he is near other dogs, but you can ask the trainer to literally let you experience how he trains: does he guide, does he use continual stim (shock), or one higher level shock, and also get him to train at least one command without you guessing/knowing beforehand what he is trying to teach you (and nothing too easy either, like sit! harder, as you have the brain of a human ). Then maybe imagine how it would be to experience that, and also be in a heightened emotional (fearful) state.

Wys
x
I don't personally know of anyone that uses an electric collar, and think I've been pretty lucky with the trainers I've found (though I'm often browsing around to see if I can find someone/something else).

I have come across trainers who wouldn't have him in their class, who seperate problem dogs and sit them in the "naughty corner" away from everyone else, and I've been advised to keep him on a short lead, wearing a halti, and keep away from other dogs (but have the sense/stubbornness to filter what I deem as being "not good advice").

I know of at least one gsd that was returned to the breeder as she became progressively more aggressive and protective of the female owner (eventually biting the husband). The owner was pleading for help, was willing to pay (both financially & commitment) whatever it took, but she was made to sit in the naughty corner so as not to scare the small dog owners.

Maybe there's just a lack of good trainers and behaviourists in general, I don't know. I think I've been quite lucky, maybe I am expecting too much from an 11 year old gsd/husky x ......... I don't know.

Pain/Drive: In the early days of having Locky, if the doorbell rang, he was at the door barking his head off. He would also "catch" his shoulder and would lie on the floor howling in pain, holding his leg as thoughit were dislocated.

On one particular occaision, he was howling in pain, I was trying to comfort him..... and the doorbell went.

He was up in a flash and at the door barking.

I'm not sure whether that's an example of how high the stimulus /electric shock/pain injection would need to be in order to break his drive, or whether it's just an example of how high his drive can be when becomes "focused" on something. He still barks at the door, but we can at least get him to calm down now.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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14-07-2010, 09:45 AM
Yes unfort there are lots of bad trainers out there because anyone regardless of experience or qualifications can legaly set up as a dog trainer

Shame about the sit in the naughty step - it can help some dogs, I know I had Mia in a class where we sat in a corner and then slowly over a period of weeks were able to build up to her participating in the class - but always with her safe corner to bolt back to
But thats not helping an owner begging for help

I totaly agree with you with how much pain a dog can take when in an aroused state

I have said before
But early days with Mia I let her offlead in an enclosed graveyard with nothing but fields around
She scaled the wall then squeezed under a few electric fences to get to a field of sheep
Thankfully for me the farmer wasnt about and she just pushed them into a corner then came zooming back to me happy with herself

But she stopped before the 1st fence crying and wouldnt come up to it - I had to find a gate for her

So she had been shocked 3 times, she was totaly aware of the shocks but getting to the sheep was important

and a electric cattle fence is NOT a stim - its a bloomin sore shock
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Wysiwyg
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14-07-2010, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
...
I have come across trainers who wouldn't have him in their class, who seperate problem dogs and sit them in the "naughty corner" away from everyone else, ...
I think you could have been offered something else, but the thing is, dog training classes are not good for dogs with "aggression" problems. They are not good for that dog,nor for the dogs being aggresssed to.

As a trainer, I'd not encourage you into my classes (sorry! hehe) but, I would help you as a separate behavioural case, and aim to gradually enable you and Locky to join classes gradually over time, with the aim of (for example) passing Good Citizens or whatever you wanted. This might mean sitting in a corner ( ) but also joining in, at a distance that would not get dogs barking and reacting... may need to start behind a barrier at first....
(I am looking for a field to set this up actually! Bit expensive ...)

I know of at least one gsd that was returned to the breeder as she became progressively more aggressive and protective of the female owner (eventually biting the husband). The owner was pleading for help, was willing to pay (both financially & commitment) whatever it took, but she was made to sit in the naughty corner so as not to scare the small dog owners.
I hope they didn't actually call it the naughty corner. Were they trying to help, but didn't have enough knowledge? See, the owners needed to research as well - they, I imagine, went to a "trainer" when they needed a good behaviourist with experience, hands on results, etc So the trainers can be blamed in the sense that they made the owners feel bad, did not guide to more experienced help etc, but the owner needs to take some responsibility for not finding more help off their own bat, too IMHO
Maybe there's just a lack of good trainers and behaviourists in general, I don't know.
I must admit, I do sigh when I see people are from your area, as i think there are more reputable, good ones in other areas.[/quote]

maybe I am expecting too much from an 11 year old gsd/husky x ......... I don't know.
I think you do need to remember your successes as much as, or to balance, your "failures". He's come a long way.

Pain/Drive: In the early days of having Locky, if the doorbell rang, he was at the door barking his head off. He would also "catch" his shoulder and would lie on the floor howling in pain, holding his leg as thoughit were dislocated.
Poor lad. One thing is, "remembered" pain can be a big problem for dogs, it can cause behaviour problems.

On one particular occaision, he was howling in pain, I was trying to comfort him..... and the doorbell went.

He was up in a flash and at the door barking.
Not surprised, this is a case really of one thing being overshadowed by another, and many dogs would react the same

... He still barks at the door, but we can at least get him to calm down now.
See - improvements!

Wys
x
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Lionhound
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14-07-2010, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post


I must admit, I do sigh when I see people are from your area, as i think there are more reputable, good ones in other areas.
I know she doesn't live in your area Michael, but if it were me I would contact Shona on this forum. Even if she could assess Locky for you, I am sure she could help as she is fab with loads of experience.
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MichaelM
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14-07-2010, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by Lionhound View Post
With my own dog we have mostly great walks but occasionaly something will happen that shows up my notso perfect training but that is fine. My training with Beau is a journey, who knows if we will ever get to the destination but we are having fun on the way.
I do like that

Originally Posted by Lionhound View Post
If he never improves from today onwards then I could live with that because I refuse to feel the pressure having the perfect dog.
It's not that I want a perfect dog that I can impress people with, I just want to do my best for him, and want him to be able to enjoy each walk as much as possible - he deserves it at his age and having been made homeless at 9 years of age.


Originally Posted by Lionhound View Post
I know she doesn't live in your area Michael, but if it were me I would contact Shona on this forum. Even if she could assess Locky for you, I am sure she could help as she is fab with loads of experience.
She's not so far off, certainly within driving distance - I'll give her a ping (and say she came recommended by you !).

Thanks.
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wilbar
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14-07-2010, 12:41 PM
On the "naughty corner" aspect, I also help with training classes in a church hall. The trainer always sends the owners a questionnaire well before the start of each 6 week course, asking basic info like age, sex & breed of the dog but also whether there are any behavioural problems, & what they most want to get out of the course. This allows her to contact owners where she thinks they would benefit more from one to one training, especially where there are dog agression issues.

Inevitably this is not a foolproof method as some dogs just get a bit worried by the whole training class scenario at first & some owners aren't always completely honest or even know that any behavioural problems are caused by the presence of other dogs. With these people & their dogs, we always try to give the dog a chance to adjust & settle down. We do this by setting up a "safe area" for this dog by screening off a part of the church hall for this dog. It is not in any way a "naughty step" but simply a way to give the dog a chance of settling & coping. Very often by the 2nd class, the dog has calmed down hugely, has experienced some very nice rewards of sausage, chicken etc, & starts to enjoy the classes & gradually meet the other dogs.

Occasionally a dog can't settle & remains fearful ~ these are the ones that are offered one to one help, but if they make good progress, usually by week 4 of the course they can join us for the outdoor class in a local park.

So I do hope that the experiences related of "naughty steps" weren't driven by owners feeling bad, or made to feel that their dog was somehow to blame. It's solely a means of helping some digs that have difficulty in coping.

At the end of each 6 week course, all the owners are asked to vote on the dog they think has made the most progress ~ not the best behaved, or the one that can do lots of tricks, but the one that has made the most progress. Invariably it is the dog that was sent to the "naughty step" but can now join in & enjoy the classes
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Adam P
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14-07-2010, 01:27 PM
Hi Krusewalker.

My offer was to talk Michael through the entire thing via email/pm/phone if needed. This would have included finding the working level, introducing the collar for recall and then tackling the other dog issue.

The body language is pretty simple really,
Working level. Is dog showing some mild reaction to stim usually looking around.
Recall is dog moving in your direction, You then stop the stim.
Dog aggression is intense stare (rememebr critical distance) at other dog, you then guide the dog away so he breaks the stare and stim stops.
In many cases you won't need to go above the working level at all. Certainly not for dog aggression as long as you follow the approach correctly. You may need to go above for the recall if he chases something for example, however in that case its as I stated before.

Maybe I need to do what the aussie guy does?

Adam
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Krusewalker
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14-07-2010, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Hi Krusewalker.

My offer was to talk Michael through the entire thing via email/pm/phone if needed. This would have included finding the working level, introducing the collar for recall and then tackling the other dog issue.

The body language is pretty simple really,
Working level. Is dog showing some mild reaction to stim usually looking around.
Recall is dog moving in your direction, You then stop the stim.
Dog aggression is intense stare (rememebr critical distance) at other dog, you then guide the dog away so he breaks the stare and stim stops.
In many cases you won't need to go above the working level at all. Certainly not for dog aggression as long as you follow the approach correctly. You may need to go above for the recall if he chases something for example, however in that case its as I stated before.

Maybe I need to do what the aussie guy does?

Adam
you are still describing an over simplified very basic form of body language assessment based on straightforward training goal orientated behavioral responses, which has nothing to do with determining emotional energy and hormonal arousal for the purposes of determining the dog's pain threshold and therefore electric shock level.

in that case, one hopes if you must advise on such matters without seeing the dog (a questionable practice for any trainer, regardless of technique), then one hopes you at least tell the handler only to use the lower levels orr to only purchase a collar that only has the lower levels (assuming that exists).

the aussie guy ref....????

hat
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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16-07-2010, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Hi Krusewalker.

My offer was to talk Michael through the entire thing via email/pm/phone if needed. This would have included finding the working level, introducing the collar for recall and then tackling the other dog issue.

The body language is pretty simple really,
Working level. Is dog showing some mild reaction to stim usually looking around.
Recall is dog moving in your direction, You then stop the stim.
Dog aggression is intense stare (rememebr critical distance) at other dog, you then guide the dog away so he breaks the stare and stim stops.
In many cases you won't need to go above the working level at all. Certainly not for dog aggression as long as you follow the approach correctly. You may need to go above for the recall if he chases something for example, however in that case its as I stated before.

Maybe I need to do what the aussie guy does?

Adam
Stress, shut down, over stimulated, scared?? Not all so simple

redirected agression?
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Jackie
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16-07-2010, 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Hi Krusewalker.

My offer was to talk Michael through the entire thing via email/pm/phone if needed. This would have included finding the working level, introducing the collar for recall and then tackling the other dog issue.

The body language is pretty simple really,
Working level. Is dog showing some mild reaction to stim usually looking around.
Recall is dog moving in your direction, You then stop the stim.
Dog aggression is intense stare (rememebr critical distance) at other dog, you then guide the dog away so he breaks the stare and stim stops.
In many cases you won't need to go above the working level at all. Certainly not for dog aggression as long as you follow the approach correctly. You may need to go above for the recall if he chases something for example, however in that case its as I stated before.

Maybe I need to do what the aussie guy does?
How can you possible advise someone over the phone/e.mail/pm, the level of stim to be used on a dog that you have not personally seen in action

I think Adam, the more you put down in writing the more evident it becomes of your total naivety, no good trainer worth their salt, would give such advice without seeing a dog personally!!
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