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Snorri the Priest
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02-04-2010, 09:38 PM
I daresay that Adam uses his e-collar(s) responsibly and not excessively, in which case, more power to his elbow. However, the reason for which I welcome this ban, and hope for its extension, is that there are too many people about who will not be so responsible, and will mistreat dogs with these fiendish things. The ban must, therefore, remain in place, and extend, to prevent cruel use. After all, they are, at best, the lazy man's training tool.



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Emma
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03-04-2010, 01:31 AM
Speed of training, management is a short term solution. Many dogs are in the situation wereby there gone if an improvment isn't seen, you can do a quick fix with an e collar (all in one day) which I will do when neccassary.

Situations include, predatory behaviour, recall, pulling, dog and people aggression, extreme fear issues (thats more like join up). My criteria for use is. '' other methods have been tried and failed, the dogs welfare or life is comprimised ''

Wysiwyg has said a lot of what I would have put so will try not to repeat it and hopefully it will make my post shorter, but nothing is for sure
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Monty Roberts. His technique is based on negative reinforcement. The horse is uncomfortale when driven away and made comfortable when it gives off the appeasing signals and comes into him. His main training tool is a dually halter that tightens when pressure is applied. This is negative reinforcment. His joinup technique uses nr to make the horse want to be with him. He is a very good trainer.
This is getting a bit off topic (but I started it ) The dually halter (similar to other halters) are kinder than normal halters and designed to keep away from the soft part of their muzzle, but like any from of halter wear can be abused, the person at the end of the rope is at fault not the equipment (no different that a collar and lead on a dog). For join up, you can call it NR if you like but there is no physical pain for the horse they are made uncomfortable by body signals not pain, or struggling, they are free to understand what behaviour is wanted without physical pain. Unlike old method that involve hobbling and much crueler methods.
Agree he is a good trainer but not without his critics either.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
wysiwig/emma and studies. and videos
If the study does't look at the use of the tool the same way I use it it is irrelavent. The same as a study which looked at the effect of hitting the dog with a lead would be irrelavent. I don't use a lead like that, I don't use an e collar like that.
- You say you researched them but not on studies, what did you use as your basis for researching them for a year?
- You do use them in the same way, you use the shock mode, that is the same! So what is so different to you using them and others using them
Adam you still havent answered
- With more consistency, effort, time and understanding some determined dog breeds, do you not think e-collars would not need to be used?
- You say that e-collars are no harsher than many things to control human behaviour, so according to your theory they could correct children's behaviour quicker than verbal reprimands, so why not on humans?
If death is the next step if they do what they are doing, you can not with any certainty fix them the same day, so measures need to be taken to keep their dog safe no matter what method you use. What type of discussions do you have with the owners??
- In what situations do you see them as fit for use? and what situations unsuitable?
-Please explain who they work if they don't as you say cause any pain or discomfort, then what are the dogs stopping their behaviour for?
- I think if people are going to use them they should be able to admit to the truth of them, they are collars that emit an electrical pulse and causes pain to some level on the dog. The only people they are fooling are themselves. I even read a person who uses them to use words other than 'shock' collars so you can manipulate peoples perception of the
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Emma
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03-04-2010, 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post


Wys
x
I think I am shortening them, I can only try
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Wysiwyg
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03-04-2010, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
I think I am shortening them, I can only try

You are doing very well Emma!

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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03-04-2010, 09:28 AM
Unless I've missed it, we dont know the make/model of shock collar which is used when Adam trains; I did ask.
Most ones used for training, as opposed to say, barking dogs, do go from very low levels up to very high ones. This is why I cannot understand why Adam says they do not hurt and are not painful, because that simply isn't true.

In fact it's totally incorrect.

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mishflynn
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03-04-2010, 11:31 AM
no body needs to read countless studies, both pro against to realise that the collars hurt, thats why they work. they work because the dogs dont like them.

I can train with a my normal collar & lead & make it really fun & enjoyable, make it "praise" then some other numpty can come & with a same collar & lead jerk the dogs head off with the correction & make them fearful.

with e collars theres no making them like them is there?

if anyone wants to prove it, i want to see the dog trained to take a titbit & eat it on command of a electric collar.

Adam you going to try it?
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Shona
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03-04-2010, 06:17 PM
Adam,

thank you for your answers,

would it be safe to say, 15 dogs would = around 10% or higher, of the dogs you train?

can I ask you the problems the 15 dogs had that you resolved with an e-collar
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Adam P
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03-04-2010, 07:50 PM
Ok if I miss questions just repeat I will answer.

Emma.
I hope I've covered your points. But here's your remaining questions as I see it.

I researched by discussing their use wit trainers who had lots of practical experience of using them, sometimes these people refer to themselves as e collar trainers (as an example of how much they use the tool) I consiered their experience far better than studies done by none trainers.

The studies reseached the sensation at a high level, I use it at a low level.

Don't know anything about kids, but the aversives (threat of prision ect) used to control human behaviour are far more severe (and poorly timed) than an e collar.

Managment generally only works short term. The malamute was off with sheep and avoiding them with three hours. Not three months or never, 3 hours this is quick and quick is sometimes nessacary.

They do use discomfort but no more than the hand pressure wyswig talks about re ellies.

Discussions with the owners are all about why the behaviour happens and how wer'e going to deal with it, managment is discussed in detail.

Sibevibe

Yes, I would start off indivadually and get them avoiding sheep and recalling well, then have two together then three and so on. Just like anyway you'd build up group behaviour.

The malamutes owner had done ALL the right things but their circumstances changed which put them in this situation. Yes maybe they could have got rid (though as I've said before rescues aren't excatly desperate for large hairy dogs) but why should they? They love him, he loves them, he can be trained for the situation why rehome?

Snorri, the trouble is bad e collar trainers will use methods that are worse than an e collar if they have no e collar.

Wyswig
The level of aversive is no more than hand pressure used with ellies. I use dogtra (which are expensive as hell) but very hardy and worth using. I've also recently used some new petsafe ones which have been surprisingly good.


Shona, will check to be sure but roughly yes. Problems are Predatory aggression, social aggression, training issues, fear issues, I can give examples but will fill the page! Often the same dog will have a mix of issues.

Adam
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Shona
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03-04-2010, 07:54 PM
Adam,

If they ban the E-collar in Devon, or if they had banned it, would you still have been able to train the 15 dogs without the collar?
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Snorri the Priest
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03-04-2010, 08:19 PM
I have trained all our dogs (perhaps a small number, compared to some), and have never used an e-collar. In fact, I'd never heard of the vile things until I came to online dog boards. All I've ever had has been tone of voice (BTW, voice works on goats, too ).

However, the very concept of an e-collar is, IMO, horrendous; the practical use of one, even more so. If the courts started using them on convicts, we'd soon see an outcry for their banning. They are not tools, they are instruments of torture.

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