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Wysiwyg
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02-04-2010, 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
...When using the collar it's hard for anyone to tell when the sensation is being used (educational videos will have a dot on the screen when the dog experiences the sensation). Its also easy to disguise an e collar by fitting a thick leather collar over the top.

Adam
I've seen some of these videos. If "one" is very experienced in dog behaviour, you can tell the dogs are often "resigned" to what is happening, very fast workers due to avoiding the pain, (which, to the inexperienced eye can look like eagerness and excitement) and often not very happy, even though they may "look" fairly Ok. I've seen some of these and heard the dog yelp so they are not so good...

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Wysiwyg
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02-04-2010, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
Sorry I think my post got bigger rather than smaller


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Wysiwyg
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02-04-2010, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
...
My experience is people have either no experience of them or have seen them used (or expect them to be used) big shock! Most of the time when training I have to tell an owner when I'm using the collar it's that subtle. Passers by aren't even aware the dog is wearing one.
To be fair,there's no reason why a passer by would have any grip on dog behaviour or body language
If I passed by, or some other peeps on here, they would see. I in fact, do see .. and have seen, i can tell within a few seconds and have never been wrong so far

Re the children - at the end of the day, regardless of any other arguments, dogs and children are both sentient. We know this to be true. Some dogs are as bright and sensitive as children ... so if shock collars are suitable for dogs, they are surely suitable for children, teaching them basic behaviours, no?

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SibeVibe
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02-04-2010, 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
Adam......
northern breeds are not all about 'Drive' using an e-collar is no magic fix to a dogs natural makeup,no amount of 'pain' disguised as training can change it,and why would you want to my answer...dog like a sibe...if u cant keep em away from livestock,dont get em!!
if your bugged by recall ...dont get em!!

and dont try to pretend you know 'northern breeds' as you clearly do not as you feel a e - collar is a perfectly ok thing to use.....trainer or bully???
bugged from london
Totally agree I know many inspirational trainers. Most are respectful of the limitations that present when dealing with the sibe. Some have bigger ego's than breed knowledge

Take care.

Sending hugs from Ayrshire xxx
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Adam P
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02-04-2010, 02:55 PM
Shona, about a year and a half. I spent about a year researching them before hand though. There a new tool to me but have proven excellant.


Sibevibe.

Yes once the response is generalised, e;g the owners have exposed ghim to sheep in different fields, on the moors ect. I also want them to expose him to sheep with lambs. At the moment he is safe off lead around livestock, the generalisation makes it permanent.

No experiene of sled dogs. It does look great though!

Tupac. People's circumstances change, a northern breed may be perfect except for......, people rescue dogs ect.
It doesn't change them, just makes their lives better, this malamute would never be able to have a run without it.

Emma, I regularly explain why the dog is doing it, I also explain why this prompts me to use an e collar when I do use one.

2d point, my dogs are high drive but haven't needed an e collar. There must be loads of high drive dogs who don't and who walk aropund sheep all the time, even huskies are off lead 9youtube) without. What's the difference between them and the dogs I use e collars on? If I knew for sure I would try and emulate it to reduce or elminate the need for collars. ot because their bad but because the less tools you need the better imo.

Monty Roberts. His technique is based on negative reinforcement. The horse is uncomfortale when driven away and made comfortable when it gives off the appeasing signals and comes into him. His main training tool is a dually halter that tightens when pressure is applied. This is negative reinforcment. His joinup technique uses nr to make the horse want to be with him. He is a very good trainer.

Speed of training, management is a short term solution. Many dogs are in the situation wereby there gone if an improvment isn't seen, you can do a quick fix with an e collar (all in one day) which I will do when neccassary.

Situations include, predatory behaviour, recall, pulling, dog and people aggression, extreme fear issues (thats more like join up). My criteria for use is. '' other methods have been tried and failed, the dogs welfare or life is comprimised ''

wysiwig/emma and studies. and videos
If the study does't look at the use of the tool the same way I use it it is irrelavent. The same as a study which looked at the effect of hitting the dog with a lead would be irrelavent. I don't use a lead like that, I don't use an e collar like that.

Toddlers. I have no practical experience of kids and have very little knowledge on training them, therefore whaterever you say goes!

McLean McGreevy, Goodwin, Mills ect, all use nr in excatly the same way as me, what's the difference between them using a tepping sensation (Mclean demo I went too) and the same mild sensatio of an e collar. Isn't the real problem the idea of using electric, once you get past that it's identical.

Adam
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Wysiwyg
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02-04-2010, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
....

wysiwig/emma and studies. and videos
If the study does't look at the use of the tool the same way I use it it is irrelavent.
Disagree ...

Toddlers. I have no practical experience of kids and have very little knowledge on training them, therefore whaterever you say goes!
I don't have kids either, but they are animals like us, sentient, etc therefore I see no difference between using shock collars on dogs or on children....

If anyone finds that abhorrent, why? why not use them on children?

McLean McGreevy, Goodwin, Mills ect, all use nr in excatly the same way as me, what's the difference between them using a tepping sensation (Mclean demo I went too) and the same mild sensatio of an e collar. Isn't the real problem the idea of using electric, once you get past that it's identical.

Adam
Adam, no I don't think this is identical at all, this is the problem.

I know what you are saying - however, I don't agree it is the same because I disagree with some if not all of your statements re the shock collar. It is negative reinforcement, as i have pointed out myself! But that apart, there is nothing in common with what they do, with what shock collar users do.

It's not necessary to use shock collars on dogs, same as it isn't necessary to use them on horses

They are being recommened now for horses, and cats ... and shock equipment is used to train circus animals on a higher level ...

Andrew McLean and the others use the gentlest form possible -with elephants I believe this was done with hand pressure - I don't agree that this is what the shock collar does. Firstly because most people don't use it like that, and secondly because those who claim they do tend to actually not mind putting the stim up, plus all the many other points that have been mentioned already, which are not pluses but negatives, re the use.

People aren't going to use it "correctly" (anyone who is good at dog training shouldnt need to use one - those who are not good, should not be able to use one ) and indeed, there is no "correct" way to use it, even.

Indeed, you only have to look at the case histories to see the very negative impact they do have on the welfare of individual dogs.

They should never ever be used for basic dog training such as Sit, Recall etc and that is one thing they are now being touted for, which is horrible

Overall for dog welfare, they have to be banned, and it's not as if I haven't really thought about it over the last 8 or so years....

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Tupacs2legs
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02-04-2010, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
.
malamute would never be able to have a run without it.
It doesn't change them, just makes their lives better,
why not?... reeks of laziness from owner,laziness from trainer and a so called miracle and quick fix...............poor poor mal
makes life better for whom??
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Wysiwyg
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02-04-2010, 03:38 PM
I have so say something which is a little critical but it is an honest comment. I've noticed from previous discussions with shock collar users that they always answer any questions re breeds etc with a "yes, I've done that last week with a (whatever breed)"



Perhaps I'm too cynical and if so I apologise, but only Adam knows what the facts are.

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SibeVibe
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02-04-2010, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Sibevibe.

Yes once the response is generalised, e;g the owners have exposed ghim to sheep in different fields, on the moors ect. I also want them to expose him to sheep with lambs. At the moment he is safe off lead around livestock, the generalisation makes it permanent.

No experiene of sled dogs. It does look great though!

Adam
Thanks for your explanation Adam

If trained using this method, would you think it responsible to let an established pack of working Siberian Huskies off lead around livestock?

Sorry Adam, I seem to be full of questions I am genuinely interested in your response.

Take care.

Seoniad.
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SibeVibe
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02-04-2010, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Tupac. People's circumstances change, a northern breed may be perfect except for......, people rescue dogs ect.
It doesn't change them, just makes their lives better, this malamute would never be able to have a run without it.

Adam
Good northern breed owners who have researched the breed, attended rallies, spoken to owners and bought their puppy from a responsible breeder, think outside the box. They ensure their dogs have safe places to free run away from livestock.

In my experience working for breed welfare. Owners who have purchased their puppy from a back door breeder, list Snow Dogs as their favourite film and want one of them there cute huskies, own dogs who end up being trained using an e-collar.

Thankfully the rescue centre managers I have dealt with will not rehome the northern breeds to a first time dog owner. They insist on breed experience. Sadly some do not.

Take care.

Seoniad.
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