No probs Wys. I for one am really enjoying this thread. A good debate without any nasty sniping !

Heck no ! I haven't got enough pee in me to cover all the ones Tai does !!

Both my dogs have been badly served by the human race - Daisy has (I think) been `wound up` to attack, and Shamus has been abused (I think) so we`ve had to re-educate them and desensitise them. Any attempt at confrontation would have antagonised one dog and terrified the other.
A warning from a dog is just that - a warning that they are stressed. Animals really aren`t that complicated. All the psychobabble about challenges to the pack structure doesn`t mean jack to an animal who got smacked or intimidated (short lead, everyone really tense) last time he met a small human. If however the encounter with the small human was a pleasant experience, the animal would have a different expectation next time.

It has been proved through the mitochondrial RNA that ALL dogs are the direct descendents of 4 female wolves.

Facts are facts, they cannot be altered. Dogs are tame wolves.

However, what we can debate about is how much of the "wolf" character is still there in our dogs. I say it is still there - scratch the surface of a Chi, metaphorically speaking of course, and therein lies the wolf. Good ! Wolves are wonderful creatures, and I for one revel in the fact that my dog's ancestors from tens of thousands of years ago were these magnificent creatures. (With Tai of course it is a bit more recent, with him being a Mal/Sibe cross, both of which were originally bred from wolves).

I have had many years of personal experience with my old boy Hal, who was a high % wolf cross, and many more years of interacting with domesticated wolves - some tame, some living as near the wild state as can possibly be achieved. It is fascinating to watch their behaviour, and compare it to our own pooches. I love watching wildlife programmes featuring wolves, I have recorded as many of them as I can and watch them over and over again. It is as if I were watching a pack of, say, Mals - not the hunting scenes of course, but the scenes where the wolves are relaxed and at leisure.

I am firmly of the camp that our dogs are domesticated wolves - their DNA proves it and so does the mitonchondrial RNA.

do you have the link/referance gnasher?
im interested in stuff like this

Thanks Gnasher Yeah defo - good summarising some people may not understand this as they may have dog/s that are happy being "followers" eg: my lab - she has not interest in being 'alpha' she is happy to follow what ever everyone else is doing. After saying that she knows my Rottie is a lower in the pack than her so will tell her off if she feels she is out of line (No bullying is accepted) but wouldn't dare tell my eldest dog off as she is higher than her.

When I first got my dogs I wasn't sure about the 'pack' theories but after watching my dogs and the way they interact with each other and with other dogs I totally beleive it and it works for me and my dogs. Me, my O/H and my daughter and my dogs respect each other and do live in harmony, very happily - despite people quoting the Hitler references

Certaintly of course I would look into why they were doing it. As you say dogs cannot talk and that is how they express that are uncomfortable with the situation that they are in. I am saying that if there is nothing wrong with the dog then it is unacceptable.

My mum and dads dog was not used to children and when my daugher came along and then started to crawl Ellie (their dog) would growl at her when she went near her (as I understood she was nervous and anxious about my daughter). We worked with her and the turn around was amazing! She could then stroke her and cuddle her without Ellie feeling insecure or nervous. I understand that kids are unpredictable therefore dogs can feel nervous around them.

My aunties dog on the other hand is a very confident dog and had no heath problems and has been brought up with children. I went round to their house and the dog was on the sofa my daughter just walked past her and she growled. This to me is the dog warning my daughter off and advising her that it is her sofa. I find this totally unacceptable.

I totally understand the growls of a dog and why they do it and can't stress to people more about why they do it as I agree alot of people don't understand that it is the only way a dog can communicate. This is why alot of the bites you see and hear of happen as people don't pick up on their or 'the' dog's discomfort in the situation and it carries on resulting in the dog snapping or biting.

I just don't think it is acceptable for a dog to growl without good reason as I have met plenty of grumpy dogs in the past.

To become 'alpha' (top dog, boss, leader).

No I know that I am saying that they are opportunatists and if they don't see an authority figure (Within the 'pack' they live in') they will step up to the mark.

Agree! it's a great thread and everyone is being nice!

Wys
x

That's just awful, a child being unkind to a dog like that! Thank goodness you had the sense to check out the situation (imagine if your JRT had been PTS ). I think that story has to be a lesson to all of us. I never would have thought of a child being deliberately nasty like that

Well on the only occasion I was up close and personal with a wolf I wasn`t getting any body language or behaviour I recognised from having dogs. It`s a bit like comparisons between dairy cows and bison IMO - yes they are the same species...only different. And TBH unless you`re going to live and behave in the same manner as when wolves first entered the cave you as a human are different as well.

eta - incidentally I thought dogs had smaller brains than wolves? So there must be some differences.

I dont think there is such a thing as unprovoked growling

A dog in our street growls and snaps at children (owners are of course v careful of this - and working on and improving the problem) Many people said they should have been more hard handed with the dog

The problem started when the dog was about a year old
He has really bad bad hips but noone knew at the time and they had been training him for flybal and had overworked him a bit too much this one day - of course being a collie and v work motivated he just kept working
Then when they were walking him a croud of kids came over to see him, owners thought up till that point he was great with kids
All kids banging into him and shouting and being kids and he goes mental snarling and snapping (never touched them)

Dog has now got it in his head Kids = v big pain in hips so whenever he saw them he would rear up on his back legs snarling to make them go away - of course with his bad hips this caused pain so reinforced the kids = pain

After time with a rubbish behaviourist the vet finaly diagnosed the problem and with hydrotherapy, pain killers and counter conditioning that kids are nice he is so much better now

Find the problem, dont punish the reaction - in his case you can see how that would have made him far far worse