I've pretty much mentioned everything I do in previous posts, this is one of many similar threads on here. I don't believe that I need to start supplementing them just because they arn't getting their random 10% max amount of veg that they would take or leave. I learnt everything I know by visiting the specialist forums and went with what made sense to me, which was what they were saying over at britbarf. I am a true believer that everything else must be in the best proportion possible to replicate what they would obtain from their prey but I firmly believe veg are an option and not a necessity.

Jess: captive animals indeed live longer than their wild counterparts, because as you rightly say they have less stressful lives, don't have to work so hard for their food, shelter etc.

Great, but this does not mean to say that we can mess about with their diet IMO. Again, IMO, I don't think you can ever do better than look at nature. The wolf, ancestor of all our beautiful dogs, has evolved an amazing way over the millenia to basically get his meat and a little veg. I personally don't think we can do any better for our domesticated wolves than mimic their diet.

My Hal was an alpha male, and it is very interesting to look back and remember on how he would not eat "rubbish". He did not like his pureed veg, he loved his meat and bones. However, occasionally, about once a week or so he WOULD tuck in and clean up the whole bowl of food, even the gravy with the cunningly disguised pureed veg in !! He absolutely would not eat fruit at all, ever, in fact, when I did manage to hide it successfully in some raw meat mixed with some lightly cooked and a really nice tasty gravy and he ate it, he had the most terrible runs, and this was repeated again on several occasions I tried again. So Hal did not eat fruit.

He would not eat eggs, raw or cooked, I would certainly not classify eggs as rubbish food for dogs in moderation, so that doesn't fit, but he wouldn't eat dairy at all, most unusual for dogs I would say, and this does fit because dairy products are not good for dogs, except live yoghurst nice and then - he wouldn't touch that of course!

Fascinating as Mr Spock would say !!

OK, fair enough Mys, but why do you think that our dogs have crushing molars (equivalent I would think to our smoothie makers!) to process vegetable matter?

To deal with chewing meat or else they would only be able to rip the meat not chew it

you could also say why is it a common belief that veg have to be pureed if they are to gain nutrient from it by using your example (that they have teeth for the job of grinding it). Those teeth arn't for processing veg

This is very true and it is the crux of the matter (crux, what does crux mean?!)

The key point being that veg are optional! yay!

I've got no problem with people saying they feed it or want too make sure they include it, but it is definitly optional, I only disagree when people say it is a must.

I guess I consider that I spend 6hrs a month processing their butcher delivery and put in way more thought than I do my own diet, need I do more! The main reason I don't do much for veg is that I'm terrible with my own intake of it and only sporadically have some fresh veg around to puree up for the dogs and it's just not something I would fuss with on a daily basis. If I could make it up in bulk I would perhaps think about it but then it's questionable how much nutrient they get from it after the freezing process as unlike meat the vits & mins get destroyed so easily. Even then if you prepare it in any sort of a container larger than an egg cup and you are taking some out to defrost that will last a few meals just that alone will get rid of many nutrients so I begin to loose seeing the point. So after I have spent my hours doing all that is nessary do I really want to f/k about with tiny sized portions of individually / meal sized frozen bits of veg? Not really. So spank me!

'' Even then if you prepare it in any sort of a container larger than an egg cup and you are taking some out to defrost that will last a few meals just that alone will get rid of many nutrients so I begin to loose seeing the point. ''

Sorry Mys but this just sounds like you have listened to someone else, and not found out for yourself.
Can we take orange juice for an example.
Squeeze a fresh orange and drink the juice or get a carton which has a 2 year shelf life, which is better for vit c?
20 mins after being squeezed half the vit c is gone... what happens to the 2 year shelf life?
Well there is a helluva lot of vit c, and we get from one glass of EITHER our recommended daily amount. From what you said I feel like you would throw out the fresh orange cos there isn't enough goodness in it. Veg that is a few days old is still full of nutrients.

Well jess, sorry, but that's patronizing...I'm not a 'sheep' and I don't just listen to everyone else and not find out for myself...Exactly the opposite...I listened to all different points of view and made my mind up with what made common sense to me, that's the point!

The off the shelf OJ probably has plenty of preserves to keep those vitamins lovely and fresh but it has nothing to do with veg being essential to dogs or not. And it is a fact that veg or fruit once open to the air loose a great deal of goodness...If you prepare some and use it over a matter of days and not instantly after blending it's highly likely the dogs are getting virtually nothing from it. It's just neither here nor there to me...and definitely not something I should feel I need to replace with loads of added vitamins. (needless to say adding to many also runs it's own risks).

If I set my dogs free right now to fend for themselves they would initially feed off the rabbits out there in the forest, we live right by it & not it town, so no bins to raid! The first thing I see them do is shake all the guts out and look disgusted by it. Do I think they would perish because they arn't getting that minute amount of chewed up grass that may or may not be in the rabbits guts? No.

I forgot to say, I feed plenty of green tripe also - another reason I see no point adding veg on a regular basis.

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti veg for dogs - when we go to steal carrotts from the fields they help dig them up for us lol. I tell them they can have one but they wont eat them out and about - to busy letting off steam to eat carrotts - however they lovvvvve them whole when they are being prepared at home I give them some even though they will be of no use in the nutritional sense because they are whole - hell if I've made a smoothie and got the blender out and if I'm feeling domestic I'll run a carrot through the blender for them on the very odd occasion, i've even done it with apples that are to bruised for us, but they didn't like those at all...But then if I go months without doing so I don't worry about it! It really is case of take it or leave it.

Mys: "Wolves (Canis lupus) feed mainly but not exclusively on flesh, deer caribou, moose, beaver, hares, domestic livestock and plant material. The carnassial teeth shear flesh; crushing molars process vegetable food"

This is a paragraph I found on the University of Edinburgh research website. It is clear that the crushing molars of the wolf are also used to grind vegetable matter.

Tawneywolf reminded us that at the Shaun Ellis lecture that we attended at the NI meet down in Kent last summer, he told us how the lower down the pack structure a wolf was, the more veg and fruit was in the diet. It tended to be the omegas who ate the stomach and contents rather than the alpha, but any which way this proves that wolves and therefore dogs not only have the teeth to process veg, but a need for veg also.

Dogs also need fibre, both soluble and insoluble. Insoluble fibre as far as I am aware can only be obtained from plant material.

I am probably not going to convince you ... if you yourself don't eat your 5 a day, then it's not going to be easy, apart from anything else, for you to ensure your dogs do. And that is not meant to be a critical remark, just stating fact. But I really would Give Veg A Chance, Mys. Try it for a bit, if only doing it like I did, which was not good, freezing it in pots which held about a week's worth of veg. but was the easiest way for my busy life, and doubtless yours. Most of the vits and minerals may be a bit knackered, but the fibre will still be there and won't be destroyed. This way really is very untimeconsuming, if a bit naughty!

I forgot to say if you feed green tripe unwashed with the stomach contents, then you don't need to feed veg. This is the best thing you can give your dogs, unwashed green tripe, so if that's what you're doing, then you're off the hook girl !!