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Velvetboxers
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13-09-2012, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Are you saying because of hunting, shooting etc.. Foxes had the presence of mind to say, "come on then, lets move into the towns cos we wont get shot or chased there" ??? Seriously??

Or could it be perhaps that they are opportunistic feeders who quickly realised that humans meant food?
Problems have arisen because man is moving further and further out taking over the foxes habitat
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Ramble
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14-09-2012, 05:43 AM
Tarimoor: if you don't need to evade the hunt, why would a fox need to do algebra. You threw back a question that essentially backed up my point. Measures of intelligence are arbitary and man made. We cannot judge the intelligence of another species by our standards. Elephants don't have war. They have a huge brain. Their emotional
intelligence is through the roof ; it is arrogant to assume that we are more 'intelligent' than they are by measuring on what is important to some of the people of our species.

As for tigers and other animals driven to the brink of extinction; as I say, take away the weapons.

Intelligent and top of the food chain?! Yet we have pretty much destroyed the planet and continue to do so! We continue to increase in numbers ourselves leading to an arrogant assumption that we need to cull other species to mIntain biodiversity so that people can go on their jollies shooting birds that have been bred and raised purely so they can be shot for fun....
Yet we are the most intelligent creatures
On the planet!! Really?! I couldn't disagree more.
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Tarimoor
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14-09-2012, 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by Helen View Post
so, they are doing this ON the day of the shoot. A group of guns stand underneath, and the "keepers" push these game birds off? Is that how it is working? Just trying to understand as I, nor my OH, has never heard of this before and we both work in the shooting industry, albeit the grouse.

Helen
Imagine big box on stilts, birds inside, traps open, birds fly out. The guns are generally stood round in a circle, I've only ever seen photographs of it, thankfully I've never actually seen it happening, I don't think I could stand and watch something like that. I don't have a clue where any of them are used either, I do know it's something that is done in the US more, not an idea I'd like to take off over here.

Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Tarimoor: if you don't need to evade the hunt, why would a fox need to do algebra. You threw back a question that essentially backed up my point. Measures of intelligence are arbitary and man made. We cannot judge the intelligence of another species by our standards. Elephants don't have war. They have a huge brain. Their emotional
intelligence is through the roof ; it is arrogant to assume that we are more 'intelligent' than they are by measuring on what is important to some of the people of our species.

As for tigers and other animals driven to the brink of extinction; as I say, take away the weapons.

Intelligent and top of the food chain?! Yet we have pretty much destroyed the planet and continue to do so! We continue to increase in numbers ourselves leading to an arrogant assumption that we need to cull other species to mIntain biodiversity so that people can go on their jollies shooting birds that have been bred and raised purely so they can be shot for fun....
Yet we are the most intelligent creatures
On the planet!! Really?! I couldn't disagree more.
It's a matter of evolution, foxes may not need to do algebra, but that's not the point, the point is they are not capable of doing it because they haven't evolved to the same level of intelligence as us. So yes, we are the most intelligent, and top of the food chain, but that's not to say that along the way we haven't made mistakes and are now seeing the damage we've caused, much of it unwittingly, some of it seems barbaric to us now, because to carry out the same acts today would be by our raised ethical standards, but when shooting tigers was the past time to do, it was deemed perfectly acceptable by many.

You can disagree all you like, animals vary in their intelligence (as do humans obviously, and part of that can depend on where you are born and how you are raised), and have been shown to display all sorts of behaviours that we previously associated as unique to humans, but the simple fact is none of them are as intelligent as we are otherwise we'd probably have a very different lifestyle to what we have now, may even be extinct, which some would argue wouldn't be a bad thing. The simple and unequivocal fact is that *humans* are more intelligent than other species, combined with some of the more modern ethical ways of thinking, hopefully we will be able to repair some of the past damage we've done, and that's still being done to some species.
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Steve
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14-09-2012, 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
We are not top of the food chain. Disarm us and we are easy prey. A gun does not put us at the top; nature puts us as prey.

We are top of the food chain Ramble.What puts us there is the fact humans have the ability to use tools.
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Steve
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14-09-2012, 07:19 AM
Originally Posted by Velvetboxers View Post
Problems have arisen because man is moving further and further out taking over the foxes habitat
I partially agree,but would be your solution? They wont stop building houses because theres already a shortage and they have to be stuck somewhere.
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Ramble
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14-09-2012, 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
We are top of the food chain Ramble.What puts us there is the fact humans have the ability to use tools.
So do sea otters. So do monkeys. So do gorillas. Actually a few animals use tools.
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Ramble
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14-09-2012, 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I partially agree,but would be your solution? They wont stop building houses because theres already a shortage and they have to be stuck somewhere.
Stop building and start using
Compulsory purchase orders for properties that are empty. We currently have a huge development being built nearby- most of the houses won't sell.
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Tarimoor
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14-09-2012, 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Stop building and start using
Compulsory purchase orders for properties that are empty. We currently have a huge development being built nearby- most of the houses won't sell.
Very much agree with this, I'd also suggest making it much more difficult for families to afford to own more than one home if the second home is rarely used, particularly if the property that's rarely used is in an area where local residents are being forced out because of high prices. As much as it's a nice idea to own a holiday cottage of your very own, it not only makes it difficult for residents of popular and pretty locations to own a home and stay within an area when those who can afford to buy second, third etc homes push the prices up, it actually takes away from our own holiday industry. People should be renting at guest houses or hotels rather than just buying a house that will rarely be used.

I also think if people are buying property as an investment to sell on, there should be a limited amount of time they are allowed to hold onto it without doing any work, or rent it out in the meantime.

I personally wouldn't want to live in an urban environment, but the number of empty properties seems ridiculous when people are struggling to afford to live somewhere, and the government is implementing schemes to build affordable houses. We may need some new ones, but we have plenty of old ones that simply need a bit of work doing to make them habitable.

When I used to work for the National Trust, there was something called a peppercorn rent system, whereby people rented a property for a very small amount, with an agreement in place to carry out improvements to the property. Another possible idea, obviously with guarantees in place to ensure the tenant doesn't simply get moved on once the property has been improved/rennovated.

Lots of ways to prevent yet more houses being built, and stop people moving out to the countryside, I'm too anti social and don't like bumping into lots of people
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Moobli
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14-09-2012, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by Tarimoor View Post
Very much agree with this, I'd also suggest making it much more difficult for families to afford to own more than one home if the second home is rarely used, particularly if the property that's rarely used is in an area where local residents are being forced out because of high prices. As much as it's a nice idea to own a holiday cottage of your very own, it not only makes it difficult for residents of popular and pretty locations to own a home and stay within an area when those who can afford to buy second, third etc homes push the prices up, it actually takes away from our own holiday industry. People should be renting at guest houses or hotels rather than just buying a house that will rarely be used.

I also think if people are buying property as an investment to sell on, there should be a limited amount of time they are allowed to hold onto it without doing any work, or rent it out in the meantime.

I personally wouldn't want to live in an urban environment, but the number of empty properties seems ridiculous when people are struggling to afford to live somewhere, and the government is implementing schemes to build affordable houses. We may need some new ones, but we have plenty of old ones that simply need a bit of work doing to make them habitable.

When I used to work for the National Trust, there was something called a peppercorn rent system, whereby people rented a property for a very small amount, with an agreement in place to carry out improvements to the property. Another possible idea, obviously with guarantees in place to ensure the tenant doesn't simply get moved on once the property has been improved/rennovated.

Lots of ways to prevent yet more houses being built, and stop people moving out to the countryside, I'm too anti social and don't like bumping into lots of people
Excellent post, and one I wholeheartedly agree with.
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Ramble
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14-09-2012, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Tarimoor View Post
Imagine big box on stilts, birds inside, traps open, birds fly out. The guns are generally stood round in a circle, I've only ever seen photographs of it, thankfully I've never actually seen it happening, I don't think I could stand and watch something like that. I don't have a clue where any of them are used either, I do know it's something that is done in the US more, not an idea I'd like to take off over here.



It's a matter of evolution, foxes may not need to do algebra, but that's not the point, the point is they are not capable of doing it because they haven't evolved to the same level of intelligence as us. So yes, we are the most intelligent, and top of the food chain, but that's not to say that along the way we haven't made mistakes and are now seeing the damage we've caused, much of it unwittingly, some of it seems barbaric to us now, because to carry out the same acts today would be by our raised ethical standards, but when shooting tigers was the past time to do, it was deemed perfectly acceptable by many.

You can disagree all you like, animals vary in their intelligence (as do humans obviously, and part of that can depend on where you are born and how you are raised), and have been shown to display all sorts of behaviours that we previously associated as unique to humans, but the simple fact is none of them are as intelligent as we are otherwise we'd probably have a very different lifestyle to what we have now, may even be extinct, which some would argue wouldn't be a bad thing. The simple and unequivocal fact is that *humans* are more intelligent than other species, combined with some of the more modern ethical ways of thinking, hopefully we will be able to repair some of the past damage we've done, and that's still being done to some species.
I agree with most of this post wholeheartedly but having worked in education for, well a few years lol, I have seen various tests mark out children as intelligent or not intelligent, but they are never holistic; they only ever look at one aspect of 'intelligence' whatever aspect is in fashion at the time. It has made me view any sort of intelligence test with scepticism in all honesty and therefore when such tests are applied to animals it gets silly. We cannot assess or compare the intelligence of anothet species with our own using man made man biased tests. It's silly There is
no common ground to base the tests on as we do not
Know enough about the animal
Kingdom.

As for the food chain thing; better scientists than us have argued it and no doubt will continue to do so. Who is the top predator if you are alone in a field in Africa with no gun ; you or a lion. Who is the top predator if you are surfing off the coast; you or a shark? Who is the top predator if you disturb a wasp nest? Or are bitten by a snake in the outback? Or you have a gun and are taken by surprise? The discussion and debate about that can go on and on and on
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