i'm still not convinced whether feeding extra veg is essential... on top of green intestines especially.. everything a carnivore needs vitamin-wise it can get from meat.. so its just fibre.. and i've read that they don't need that either as they have a short digestive tract and so it has no real benefit.. i'm looking to add sources to this... but i can't find anything to say it's a necessity..

that doesn't mean that canids don't eat fruit/veg, they do, but why are they eating it? i don't know now!

Because they need it, just like us, except in much smaller quantity and not so regular.

They need fibre, I don't accept that because they have a short digestive tract they don't need fibre. I'll have to go and talk to The Oracle ... him with the large ... ahem ... credentials ! ... and see what he says.

yep, let me know what he thinks.. i've read a couple of things saying that about the digestive tract.. but you can more or less find something to support anything using the internet unfortunately (or fortunately?)!

Yes indeed that's true, but on the serious academic sites you get access to all the latest research, backed up by facts. It's all beyond me, I have to say, but Mike translates for me into simple terms that a Bear of Very Little Brain like me can understand !

He's in website designing mode at the moment, and is complaining about my rattling keyboard, so don't hold your breath !!

Girl, why didn't you say this before???

That was my whole argument with you, if your feeding green tripe then they don't need any more veg matter than that because it takes care of the tiny amount of stomach contents they would cosume from the small prey. So really, its the most natural way of feeding them veg matter. I just don't see the point in pureeing heaps of the stuff. I get my tripe from landywoods, very smelly, very green and to the dogs, very lovely!

Blooooooooomin heck!

Oh, and thanks for the PM

Why didn't YOU say !! I think probably because green unwashed tripe is absolutely so revolting, that it never occurred to me that anyone would be that brave to feed it !! Very anthropomorphic of me I know, but everyone1 has their limitations! Plus the fact that Hal wouldn't touch it, stupid dog.

All's well that ends well then, glad we're speaking again !!

Gosh this thread has taken a lot to catch up with, had to skim over a few of the longer posts. I have found this thread so interesting its fantastic. Anyway here goes:

Personally I believe dogs/wolves do need veg in their diet. I used to cook veg but after reading this thread it seems common sense to me now that food should be pureed (so have bought a blender, and it was so much fun to use - god its bad when thats the highlight of ya week!! lol, sorry off topic). The way I see it now is that dogs/wolves cannot process (get the goodness) out of veg by chewing it up themselves hence the need for eating the stomach contents of herbivores, however I do believe their 'crushing molars' are indeed there for chewing up veg matter amongst other things. Shaun Ellis did indeed say that the lower the rank of wolf the more vegetable matter they consumed as wolves are indeed able to tell the rank of another wolf by its scent and what they eat influences how they smell, one of the examples he used in the domestic dog was grass eating, lower ranking dogs are much more likely to eat/chew on grass and dispelled the theory that dogs eat grass because of upset stomachs as myth. Also if veg was proven not to be needed then why do most commercial dog foods contain veg? My dogs have veg with pasta once a week, Angel won't eat the veg by choice and has to be tempted by adding cheese (he loves cheese) or gravy, the girls also enjoy apples, banana's and oranges (Angel's picky about them too).

Tawneywolf, I forgot about the bit where he mentioned they feed on their dam's where they would feed as an adult giving early clues to their potential rank, thanks for the reminder.

Gnasher you said in an earlier post that dairy products are not good for dogs (except live yoghurt) why is this? There is another thread on here somewhere about dangerous human foods for dogs and someone included cows milk. Shaun Ellis also said that female wolves after having a litter will often kill calves (including baby cows in farming areas) and feed the stomach contents (it mothers milk) to the rest of the pack as the milk has a soothing/calming effect on the rest of the pack so she can then introduce her babies into the pack without any problems, so wolves do infact consume ‘dairy products’ with no problems and if as you say dogs are wolves then milk must also be fine for our dogs surely? I put Shaun Ellis’s theory to the test and put my dogs on a small drink of milk each evening for a week after I bought them home and it did indeed have a noticeable calming effect, and had no adverse affect on the dogs and they love the stuff.

And lastly, why shouldn't pregnant bitches eat liver? In the wild it is usually the alpha pair that mate and as we know the alpha's always get the best bits (usually liver etc), I hardly think a pregnant wolf thinks hang on a minute I best not eat that its too high in vitamin A and change their diet for 9 weeks, it clearly does the wolf and her pups any harm so I think its odd to suggest that pregnant bitches should not eat liver in moderation.

Ok I’ve said my piece – goes and crawls back into my hole!

I have decided that when either of mine has babies I will photograph them suckling and then do a piccie every day then to see if the order changes, if I have a fairly uniform litter as regards to colouring I think I may even number them just to see if they go to the same place every time!!1 Then I will be able to tell as they get older what ranking they hold in their puppy pack, and by keeping in touch with their new mummys and daddys be able to find out how they turn out with regards to ranking. One thing I have noticed though, my 2 seem to be able to recognise dogs that have wimpy owners and make a beeline for them, dogs with 'strong' owners (for want of a better phrase) are played with and associated with on entirely different terms. So does the type of owner actually influence what the dog becomes I wonder? I thought it was that they recognised the dogs ranking at first, but then realised that the type of owner seemed to govern whether the dog was a wimp or not.
As for the dairy thing, I have been told that puppies lose the enzyme to digest milk within a few months so therefore giving them dairy could cause problems. I can well understand Mummy Wolf giving the contents of a cow's udder to her babies because they would still have the enzyme, but from my understanding of it, young adults upwards should not have it.
I have also been told not to give liver during pregnancy due to the Vitamin A and not to give fish oils during the first 5 weeks. Will consult my oracle (Lyn B) for the definitive reason, I just do as I'm told!!!

Hi Anglemist, if a wolf kills and eats a calf that is suckling, then the "milk" that he would consume via the calf's stomach would effectively be predigested by the calf. Herbivores produce an enzyme called lactase to digest lactose. Wolves don't produce lactase to digest lactose, hence the reason why it is not good news to feed your dog cow's milk. Sheep and goat milk are lower in lactose in cow's milk, and I know at least 1 breeder who swears by goat milk, and I can understand why.

Interestingly enough, my daughter is lactose-sensitive and has Crohns disease, and does not drink cows milk. We used to give her sheep milk, but now she drinks Oatly, which she loves.

Interesting TW. When Hal was with us, I did notice that he made a beeline for OWNERS themselves who were robust. His fave people of all time were my horsey friend, Maureen, who I rode with and who was the other half of our accident, and my brother, Tim. My father came third.

TW would back me up I think, as she has met him, but on the whole he was very aloof with people full stop.

Does the type of owner influence the dog? I think the answer to this would probably be yes. I think an owner could overcome the genetic disposition - in other words, if Mike and I were wet, would Hal have still been an alpha. I think if we had allowed him to dominate us, he could have been aggressive, but I think if we were not wet with him, but calm, laid back, chilled sort of people, he would have been more obedient. Mike and I tend to be a bit maverick-ish, if someone tells us to turn right, then we will turn left just to be awkward.

Thinking about it, this sums Hal up to a T !!