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Location: USA
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26-08-2011, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox 
Well I have just come back from visiting a friend with a 14 wk old black lab.... fab little bundle of mischief... guess what said little monster kept doing, turning belly up for me to tickle him tum...
bless .Many years a go, when Bandit was a tiny pup, I took him to training, the trainer was trying to get thim to sit, (he was only 13 wks old, Bandit bless him, did not want to , so she took hold of his lead and forced him onto his back..... guess what the little baby resisted.. and growled and got all snappy............she said .. goodness you are going to have an aggressive dog on your hands there is you dotn sort that out.........
it all happened in a matter of a few seconds... I pretty sharpish took hold of my pup, and told her in no uncertain terms what I thought, then walked out, with her muttering..silly dog owner, she will be sorry.
As most of you have known my boy for years... you will know, the old soul did not have an aggressive bone in his body.
Yet here we are listening to the same old crap by supposedly intelligent dog savvy people.
God help those who seek help from said neanderthals
No puppy roll does not need to be forced. Through 1000s of generations the pup which did not displayed sub-dominance by rolling over was killed, thus no it is not necessary any more.
Same way your pup thought that he is going to get killed thus did not want to submit. There is a difference. Can you see that? Even me the Neanderthal could.
Please actually read what I am saying before you call me names!!!!!
Prager Hans
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Location: USA
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Posts: 111
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26-08-2011, 04:58 PM
By the way do you actually believe that all new is good and all old is bad?
It sure looks like it.
Get off your high horse and discuss with out your little snarky remarks. Can you do that?
if you would open your mind and think bout other peoples opinions without being stuck up somewhere in the high clouds you could actually learn something from others and about yourself too.
I guess I am dated since I remember days back when, where it was possible. Thus here is an example,... some old things are better then new ones.
Prager Hans
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Location: God's Own County
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,584
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26-08-2011, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans
Every group of animals, hoses, dogs, antelopes, lions, ....and even people live in hierarchically structured pack.
Prager Hans
Must check on my hoses though pretty sure they aren't in a hierarchically structured pack, reels maybe but defo not packs
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Location: God's Own County
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,584
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26-08-2011, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans
OK for sake of clarity:
You do not believe that dog is responding to you because you told him so to do it, thus you are the dominant member in that relationship?
Prager Hans
1. It means a reward for them
or
2: It means they will be forced to do so if they do not
S*d all to do with dominance
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Location: UK
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,122
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26-08-2011, 05:30 PM
The neanderthal remarks are directed to the neanderthal mentality behind the alpha role and dominance theories you are firmly behind, so as they say....if the cap fits!
I did read what you wrote and still cant see why an AR is necessary to you being any kind of leader or a bonding exersice for you and your dog.
What can it possibly teach a young dog other that fear.
Regarding my puppy, the point to hand was that why did he need to be taught to submit.. he learnt to sit without being forced to do so,
You are right also, I do learn things about myself daily, one being intolerance..intolerance of some old fashioned idea that we have to dominate our pets, otherwise they will take over the world while we sleep.
Which brings me on to not all old is bad, i agree, not all old is bad, some new is equally as bad..but any form of old with a background of dominance is 100% bad.
BTW... I did not attack your country, sadly (oops again) we still have some here who believe as you do.
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Location: UK
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26-08-2011, 05:33 PM
OK for sake of clarity:
You do not believe that dog is responding to you because you told him so to do it, thus you are the dominant member in that relationship?
Prager Hans
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK
Dogs respond to commands for two reasons:-
1. It means a reward for them
or
2: It means they will be forced to do so if they do not
S*d all to do with dominance
I prefer my dogs to do things due to reward, not through punishment or the fear of it.
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Location: USA
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Posts: 111
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26-08-2011, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
Sadly, oops, that word again , maybe because it saddens me.
The neanderthal remarks are directed to the neanderthal mentality behind the alpha role and dominance theories you are firmly behind, so as they say....if the cap fits!
I did read what you wrote and still cant see why an AR is necessary to you being any kind of leader or a bonding exersice for you and your dog.
Nowhere have I said it is necessary. I have even say that I do not use it.
What can it possibly teach a young dog other that fear.
[COLOR="SeaGreen"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Respect of your position. Respect does not need to come from fear. Respect may come with love too. Strange concept I know.
Regarding my puppy, the point to hand was that why did he need to be taught to submit.. he learnt to sit without being forced to do so,
The training have 3 steps. One is learning, then is conditioning through repetition and then is enforcing it if for what ever reason dog does not do it.As they all now and they do. The first and second stage must and should be mostly positive motivational, the third one needs to apply negative consequence to improper or dangerous behavior)
You are right also, I do learn things about myself daily, one being intolerance..intolerance of some old fashioned idea that we have to dominate our pets, otherwise they will take over the world while we sleep.
Yawn!
Which brings me on to not all old is bad, i agree, not all old is bad, some new is equally as bad..but any form of old with a background of dominance is 100% bad.
I prefer to call it leadership. BUT I am glad that we have clarified your opinion on the matter. All correction and leadership is from a leader is 100% bad. Got it. .
BTW... I did not attack your country, sadly (oops again) we still have some here who believe as you do.
I am not going to analyze who said what where . It may not have been you.
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
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26-08-2011, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans
I guess what is interesting is that you are indirectly saying that trainers who do not subscribe to this theory are not decent. That is what people like you do . Instead of saying why it is not truth and have creative and interesting discussion they just go and make ad hominem attacks.
Prager Hans
\ No, there is no Hierarchy and alpha roll. What a crack!!!!!
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Location: USA
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26-08-2011, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs
i think u will find,it wasnt rolled physically,the behaviour was offered.
Prager Hans
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Location: USA
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26-08-2011, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
As above, you can get your dog to respond to your commends two ways, one being pleasurable, the other not.
I prefer my dogs to do things due to reward, not through punishment or the fear of it.
Some just have to argue even when you agree.
Prager Hans
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