Yep, time for bed in more ways than one...

I just found this thread and see that it's gone on for quite some time. In keeping with the desires of the forum moderators, all of my comments apply to the use of the Ecollar ONLY after all other methods have been tried and have failed.


An Ecollar an inanimate object that just sits there until a person picks it up and uses it. A more accurate statement would be that some PEOPLE "are cruel, harsh . . . and dangerous." As for "unnecessary" if other methods have been tried and failed, then it's a good tool to try before killing the dog.

Good law! But as we know, sometimes leashes break, they are pulled out of the owner's hands or the collar slips over the dog's head. Sometimes dogs get out of their yards. If they're in the presence of stock when this happens the owner should be able to recall the dog.

This isn't true when modern versions of the tool are used as I advocate. I've NEVER made the problem worse and have never had a failure.

Again, an absolute statement and they're almost universally wrong. I can direct anyone who is interested to two "success stories" where your favored methods were used on fearful dogs and failed. Then an Ecollar was used with complete success. It both cases, it literally saved the life of both dogs.

Usually a "quick fix" means something that's short lived such as a quick fix with duct tape and bailing wire to get the car home. Learning that occurs with the Ecollar is longer lasting than any other. There are cases of lifetime learning occurring from one stim.

You use this term "barbaric" fairly often but have never backed it up with any facts. Do you have any? Such an attack is nothing but emotional. I prefer to stay in logic and reason.

Please cite such damage that occurs with modern Ecollars used properly.

They cause a minor amount of discomfort. About the same discomfort as a single flea bite.

This is just conjecture. In the success stories that I mentioned above both dogs, and their training occurred years ago, have continued to live happy, healthy lives. But if you have any case studies that show this, I'd love to see them.

She has caused her dog some minor discomfort.

The OP spent quite a bit of time and money on her dog. How long should she have to wait for the training to work?

Same question to you. How long should the OP be required to wait? How much money should she have to spend before admitting that they're not having the desired effect?

This is management not training. The problem with management is that it ALWAYS breaks down. We're human, we make mistakes. It's a virtual guarantee that some time in that dog's life the door to the other room won't be closed all the way and he'll burst into the room where the guest is and a bite will occur. Because he's been frustrated for so long, it may be a serious bite. Far better to train the dog to tolerate strangers in the house.

Please JB, no one has described how the Ecollar was used and you've jumped to a conclusion that simply is not true. That is an ancient way of using the tool and not what I advocate. There are other ways to use the tool where the discomfort doesn't rise above the level of a single flea bite.

Nothing. That's why that method is NOT what's done.

Yes that's true and that's one reason I'm here. Modern versions of the tool, used as I advocate, are not cruel. They're not "morally repugnant." The problem is one of education. Just as Jackbox thought that the tool would be used to "zap (the dog) within an inch of his life." That's how most people in the UK think the device is used. That's not the case today when it's used properly. The lowest level of stim that the dog can feel is what's used. People who feel this (where they first feel it) describe it as a "buzz" or a "tingle." Children who feel it giggle.

As long as those methods work that's great. But they don't always. When they fail, the Ecollar, properly used can succeed.

I'm not so sure that I'd call those tools "humane." Compressed air can be dangerous to mucous membranes and it can actually tear healthy skin. But then I don't know how they were used so I can't comment. I wish that others would take the same tack with the Ecollar. That is, instead of assuming that they know how they work, ask.

In the first sentence the OP wrote was that the Ecollar saved her dog's life. She was near taking the dog back the rescue even knowing that he' probably be put down. That's "critical" in my book.

The OP has posted information that would allow you to easily contact her. And someone has posted a link to her position at the college where she works.

Used properly they cause a slight amount of discomfort.

The truth is that sometimes with some dogs they don't. I'm happy to direct you to two cases where they didn't.

Other places you say that if other methods have been tried and failed, then an Ecollar is acceptable. Ecollars are none of the things you have stated. PEOPLE may be those things but Ecollars are inanimate objects.

It's just an opinion that they're cruel. I realize that they're not. One difference between us is that I've been using them for nearly 20 years and I don't think that you've ever used one or even seen one used as I advocate.

In this Ecollars are no different from any other tool. It can be used cruelly or it can be used properly. When it is, it's not cruel. We're not talking about a rack or an iron maiden. We're talking about a tool that is adjustable. It can be turned down so low that no dog (or human) can perceive the stim. Then it can slowly be turned up until it's just barely perceived.

I'm sorry but even a few minutes of thought will show that this simply isn't possible. If there is a real threat of a dog being poisoned, merely being "attended" isn't going to stop it. "Check(ing) the area thoroughly is impossible as poison can be hidden in a ball of meat only 1/4" around. But I don't think that this is a very good reason for using an Ecollar. The actual cases where poisoning is a real threat are few and far between.

Your comment that has the owner "stick(ing) an Ecollar on (her) dog" wasn't something that was taken lightly. She consulted several trainers who billed themselves as using your preferred methods. She spent quite a bit of money on them. The fact that some of what they did was not things that you'd suggest or even classify as "positive," matters not. The average pet owner isn't going to know what's "positive" and what isn't. It's nothing but a matter of opinion and everyone has one of those.

It wasn't the owner suggesting that it be put to sleep. It was an acknowledge that if she couldn't fix the problem that the dog would have to be taken back to the rescue where that would be a possible outcome.

I'm sorry and it may get me thrown off here but this is not the case. All of my dogs have been trained with the Ecollar and none of them are miserable. If you have something to support this argument, please present it. Otherwise it's just your opinion and I doubt that you've seen any dogs that have been trained with my methods. To make such a blanket statement is to virtually guarantee that you're wrong.

The original post that started this contains that statement in the very first paragraph. The OP tried "more humane methods" they didn't work.

THAT IS NOT WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE WITH AN ECOLLAR! Why you keep making statements like this is a complete mystery. First the Ecollar shouldn't be used on a child. To make that connection is illogical. Children aren't dogs and we don't treat them as such so we also don't train them as such. If a dog is approaching something that's dangerous (such as stock) the CORRECT Ecollar method would have you gently making him slightly uncomfortable every time he approached the stock. You'd direct him away from the stock and then relieve this slight discomfort.

You can remove your son from the danger of the oven until he's 28 if you like, but at some point, he's going to burn himself. Then he'll understand much better. At some point your son would understand that the stove is hot and will hurt him. You can tell your dog this every day and he'll never understand.

No one is going to get rich as there simply isn't enough demand for this. But he makes a comfortable living doing this and "regular" dog training as well.

Of course nothing is guaranteed. But I have yet to hear of a dog that's been properly snake proofed that has been snake bit. And I actively look for such incidents.

This solution is not possible. The dogs that are at the highest risk are SAR dog and PSD's (police service dogs). These dogs work out of the immediate view of their handlers and have to make these decisions for themselves.

I'm not sure what happened on the "other thread" but here's how this works. When the button of an Ecollar is released the behavior that accompanies it is reinforced. Technically that's -R (negative reinforcement. It's not a "reward" but it is rewarding.

While I agree with you that some of the things that the OP mentions are not what would be commonly called "positive training" she was told by the trainers that their methods were positive. How is she to know that they weren't. How would any pet owner be able to tell?

I apologize for the length of this, I just found the thread and tried to respond where appropriate in one post.

Hello again Lou.
You do know about the other thread as you posted on it.
You have your opinions. I think they are wrong. End of. I'm not being dragged back into the ecollar thing. Everyone knows my opinion that is not about to change. I stand by everything I said, particularly the cruel and barbaric pieces of equipment part.
Sorry to be blunt. Quick reply, to be polite as you quoted me a lot. I will never, evr change my opinion so there is absolutely no point in me posting again.
Axxx

Your in LA but your not the guy that I know of that does this. I know how much he charged and I know how busy he was and that was just 2 weekends a year in the High Desert area(he was in demand but has various locations in S.Ca and AZ that he goes to), Im not saying it will make someone rich but this guy aint doing too bad off it.

Theres a woman I know from there that had one of her dogs 'snaked' about 8 years ago and another one of her dogs about 4 or 5 years ago, neither will even go near a coiled hosepipe since...never mind approach a snake. neither dog required medical attention although she did say that the older dog was a bit sore/swollen for a few days. I dont disagree with the e-collars being used for this and like I said in the first post I put in this thread, any training tool can be cruel in the wrong hands.

I may have but I don't remember it. If someone can post a link, I'll be happy to go back and look.

Can you tell us why? What are your opinions based on?

It's inconceivable to me how someone can have this opinion without having ever seen how gentle an Ecollar can be when used properly. You won't even be able to tell when I'm pressing the button! There's nothing inherently cruel or barbaric about electricity. It heats our homes, cooks our food and provides light against the darkness. Can you explain how you come by this opinion?

Electricity has also been used to kill people.
Night night.

So like virtually everything under the sun, it can do both good and bad, something that I've already pointed out. Why is it that you only focus on the bad? How have you arrived at your opinion that the Ecollar is "cruel and barbaric?" I'm not challenging it I'm trying to understand the thought process.

Haven`t come across this thread previously.

All I shall say is I dont personally believe the first post is genuine at all and I smell either troll, e-collar seller, or both.

What kind of rescue or pound homes a dog with an aggression problem to someone who has never owned a dog before.
I`d be interested to know the name of the place if it really exists - or has the OP vanished...
Pfffft !

Are people really still taken in by e-collars as supposedly something `good` these days ???

If it was a genuine first post, [ which I doubt ], I hope the rescue/pound the poor dog came from take the littl`un back, and out of the gullible and foolish hands of those using such an inneffective and dangerous tool.

Cant manage a little Westie ?
Try an Aibo instead !

Anyone using E devices does so simply because they know absolutely nothing about dogs, are probably afraid of dogs anyway, or have such an ego that they cant bear being outsmarted by a dog so they need an electronic crutch to force a dog to comply, in my extremely experienced opinion.

Must dash, I`m having Troll soup and I dont want it to get cold

Not Ailsa1, but I assume you don't mind others throwing in their thoughts?

Doesn't the e-collar, simply because of its intended purpose (to give correction) automatically lead people to focus on the 'bad'?

If I think of an electric lightbulb, I think positive - it allows me to see when it's dark because it lights up the room I'm in.

If I think of the electric chair, I think negative - it kills people who have committed an offence

I've no doubt I'll get a long narrative in answer to this, but quite simply, this equipment was designed to offer discomfort so surely cannot be automatically be thought of in the rose tinted glow that you would like it to be

The OP's information has been posted. If you doubt that she exists I suggest that you make a phone call or two.

This forum only allows discussion about Ecollars as a solution to be used before the dog's owners have decided to put the dog to sleep; to save the dog's life and that's fine with me. But such a statement as this is just silly. I've been training dogs for over 27 years and know a bit about them.

Most of my work is with police dogs. They bite. I respect their power but I'm not at all afraid. I've never heard this accusation before. Where does it come from?

I'm not sure how using an Ecollar stops a dog from outsmarting a trainer and I'd love to hear how this works.

You are "extremely experienced" with Ecollars? Sorry but I don't think you've ever a modern version of the tool used as I advocate. But please feel free to point out where I'm wrong. BTW being "extremely experienced" with other tools does NOT prepare one for using an Ecollar. The techniques are vastly different.

You know me Brierley, I welcome all comers.

When the behaviors are taught with the Ecollar. The emphasis is on teaching, not on correcting. It's only those who train with another method and use the Ecollar to correct that the emphasis is on correction. But even there the emphasis is on getting the right behavior. Seems to me that even when it's used only to correct poor or undesired behavior, that the emphasis is on getting the right behavior. You folks ignore the wrong behavior, we seek to extinguish it and, at the same time, get the desired behavior.

On the first, it might light up something that you didn't want to see, hence it wouldn't be positive. On the second, it removes that person from society and that's not a negative thing. (Please no debates about the death penalty, it's just off topic). You can put a positive twist on things if you want, and you can do the opposite if you want.

Was this too long? LOL.

Sure it can. When your methods fail, and they do sometimes with some dogs, the Ecollar saves their lives. That seems pretty rosy to me.