How to explain something Part deux

See my other thread:

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=170713

As per charlie locking his jaw onto a pup that came into his driveway and not wanting to release despite all the mothers in the neighbourhood whacking him.

Naturally i have explained to my client that this technqiue doesnt work, as the dog gets an adrenaline surge which blocks out pain and wider perception of whats going on.

Again, i cant help but feel, whilst i am factual and correct, i am still only resorting to self reinforcing statements merely backed up by my own professional pedigree.
So it would be completely fair for one of the mother mafia again turn round to me and say 'well, thats just what you say....can you explain that properly please, otherwise i dont believe you'

so again, how would YOU explain this?
what, for example, physiological facts would you refer to?

cheers guys

LOL OK so you want a proper real scienty explination

Well first we go with the hypothisis
'Hitting this dog does not make him release his jaws when he has got a hold of something'

Well from the 'experiment' that the mothers performed it is safe to say that in that situation hitting him didnt work

expand the hypothisis
'Hitting some dogs does not cause them to releae their jaws'
Again this has been tested enough by people doing it and it not working

So we can take it that hitting a dog is unlikely to get them to release their hold on something

Expanding again - adreniline is released when you hit the dog

Plenty studies have been done on all sorts on mammels taking bloods and things to take it as pretty much a given that the dog will be pumped up with the stuff

Effects of adreniline have also been studied enough to make it a fair assumption that the dogs ability to feel pain has been reduced (In humans we can ask them, how dogs feel and process pain is pretty much the same, and they respond less to pain in situations like these - therefore fair to make the assumption they are feeling less pain)
Another effect of the boost of hormone is strength and speed increase - So the dog is less able to actually feel the pain the people are causing him but the direct effect of them hitting him is to make him stronger

I understand what you are saying about just using fuzzy statments that everyone uses - but in some cases things have been studied well enough that you are able to say them with a fair amount of certainty

and in reality that is all science is - we look at what happens and then try and think of why it happens, then test our theory the best we can with observation, experimentation and other peoples work

Your hypothesis holds based on the evidence we currently have

not knowing the mafia but perhaps when they say 'can you explain that properly please, otherwise i dont believe you'

what they actually mean is 'can you explain in terms that I will understand/be able to relate to'

you hear stories of woman finding the strength to lift cars off of kids/people or other heavy objects and as far as i know that is all about adrenaline to an extent perhaps find a way to incorporte that into an analogy of sorts?

am trying to think of something.....

Again, given that you are talking to to 'mafia mothers', I'd take a different tack and try to make them see it as they would children.

Firstly they have to understand that the dog doesn't know he is 'doing wrong'. I'd compare it with a very young todler who doesn't yet understand very much language. Imagine the todler picked up something that the mother didn't want it to have. If she started hitting the child, would the child understand why he was being hit? would he automatically think 'oh they must want me to drop what I'm holding'? No, and neither would a dog.

It may of course be different where the dog/child does understand what you want them to do and is just ignoring you. Hitting may work in that instance as they will associate the punishment with the lack of compliance and make the connection that 'stop the thing I'm doing = stop the hitting'.

Someone is attacking your child, your husband apprehends them. the person punches your husband trying to get away.

Does your husband:

A) say oh alright you hit me so i am going to let go
or
B) hold on with all his might until the police get there

iok so not quite right but i think am getting there..

Oh, I got confused on the other thread, LOL

Shame as I'd just found an interesting bit by James O' Heare re. dog/dog versus dog/human aggression. Oh well!

I think I'd say something a bit like:

"The brain's chemical reponses affect dog behaviour. The chemicals can be thought of as happy or angry messengers, so can cause aggression and reduce his ability to think straight. When a dog is all riled up. he just doesn't react or feel as he would when he is calm - well, do you?"

Or something along those lines?

Wys
x

Ahh not scientific - how to explain to people so that they get it

You hit him, he gets more angry and that makes him strong like the Hulk

Or is that going too basic

Actually, I'm liking that one - short and to the point!!

Wys
x

L O L Ben, you were right the first time is about avoiding fuzz y statements. So I can stil make statements in language they understood understand but the content will itself, be accepted as cooberating fact over and above it being accepted as fact just because I say so as a dog trainer