Pod, I have to just say, that your posts are always incredibly informative, in the past I'd have given reppys for some of the things you've posted on this thread, but since I can't I'll proclaim it on the thread itself. Thanks Pod.

I see what you mean Dawn, know a few boxers with them as well. Maybe they've just been lucky.

The `weak tail` thing is a misnomer, nothing more. No breed is particularly `designed` to have `stong` tail construction specifically. Carriage maybe, but thats nothing to do with strength of construction for safety from furniture, doors, or brambles. Whippets tails are by far the flimsiest and the least protected - their tails are not docked as a `just in case` thing.
Why not ?
Because they use them for racing and to dock them would make them less effective - for the human purpose...

My Lurchers tail would be technically be at far more risk even than a Whippets because its very fine, has long silky feathering much like a Spaniels, and is exceptionally long, with the Saluki `spiral` build - ripe for being damaged, but no one would dream of saying he should of been docked as a pup for having a less than substantial tail build. [ Not to my face, unless they had earplugs in anyway :smt077 ]

At agility shows, I am lucky to see all sorts of `traditionallly docked` breeds with their tails intact and boy do they use them for their agility. If they were so fragile, it would be far too risky to have them going over jumps or through weaves in case they repeatedly knocked them with their whipping action When seen on agility comp photographs and video clips, they use their tails exactly the same way as all other straight tailed agility dogs do.

Using agility again as a comparison but on another slant :
I do agility. But I dont get dogs to do agility with, I get them as companions first and if they take to agility, as long they are physically sound enough for it in all ways, thats a bonus. I would not do any activity with them that they were not physically suited for, and would not deliberately put them in obviously dangerous situations like working Spaniels are repeatedly put in.
If Spaniels with proper tails are not safe enough for hunting activities without being regularly damaged, [ and lets be honest, the type of hunting they are involved in is for human pastime and so called sport, not out of life or death starvation `need` ], then they should not be used for it, simple as that.
There are other activities a typically mentally and physically active Spaniel can do without being put at risk the same as there are for the most worky of collies which are not in a position to be able to work sheep but can still be given a full life with their brains and instinctive traits needing to be utilised for the sake of the dogs` sanity.

My tripod [ rear leg amputee ] and all other rear leg tripods I know of, rely on and constantly use their tails for counterbalance. Knowing what I do now, having lived with a tripod for so many years and closely observing his movement ability, if he were a docked breed, I would have to of drastically reconsidered if he could have had a good enough quality of movement when losing his leg without a tail to help him so much.

In all the countries who protested as much leading up to their docking bans, they have not had a massive influx of, [ genuine ], tail injuries in previously docked breeds and no breeds have become extinct in those countries either

Ultimately, dogs` welfare should come before a human hobby, and that includes not doing activities causing, [ alledgedly ], regular and what I would consider reckless damage to tails.

And just for you Ramble, here is Stormie again for you to drool over

Thanks Patch, really interesting stuff again!
You know, I just don't know what it is, I've always loved rottis, their size, strength,character and beauty, but their docked tails really put me off. There is just something about a rotti with a full tail and aside from the whole docking debate, I really and truly can't wait to see lots of lovely waggy tailed rottis out and about. i genuinely think they look amazing. :smt049

All I can say is Tonto is the first JRT i have had with a tail..... and its totally amazed me the difference it makes having a dog who is able to express his feelings with a complete tail.

Sure the others wagged, but sometimes he does a tiny wag, with just the tip, which I'd never know existed if that tail wasn't there.

Tis lovely to see.

.... and I agree about rotties with tails, they are even lovlier with them.

Thanks Patch that was a good post

it will be a nightmare for some of us, i personally dont work, but have working lines all down my pedigree, because i intend to show and its impossible to choose at 48 hours (when we dock) ill have to leave them all entire and endorse pedigrees not to be worked, as i'd hate an injury, there awful on a springer.
Just another thought how do you stop a gundog thats running free from naturally springing game through the bracken... sounds like a disaster too me, a lot of us are already considering not breeding anymore or changing breeds.
Sorry for the rant but I feel so strongly about this,

Regading dew claws find it odd that they can still be removed by the breeder but puppies scream where as if you band a tail they only wimper, and isnt that stil cosmetic.
I hate dew claws by the way, 1st week groomer training and saw an old bichon that had them so long they were digging into the skin

Genuine question (excuse my lack of knowlege here)

Fingal (my spinger) has no dew calws.

Would these have been removed prior to us getting him (8 weeks) or can they be born (through prior blood line removal) without them ?

Phil

If the ones on the front legs are missing, they were probably removed. I've never heard of dogs born without these but I suppose it is possible. He may have had rear ones when born but I don't think they're that common in the Spaniel breeds.

You can sometimes see a little scar tissue if they have been removed, and the hair is sometimes a little longer around the scar site.