So your dogs use just toes to tap other dogs & not the whole paw ?? Never seen that please read my post I wrote

My Wu uses his paws to touch other dogs, but he does not"tap"them in the human sense, he uses his whole paw & it's not used as a correction either

im not the only person to 'tap' their dog, i know of a few. its just a way to get his attention or show him what i want him to do. i seriously dont see what the big deal is.

and there are lots of things the humans do to a dog, that they dont do to each other.

i have taught him to get down from furniture, and he usually always does. and i dont push/pull him off furniture.

i was calm at the time, i just wanted to get him out the room so my mum didnt go crazy.

his health is getting sorted out, but i would imagine he is in a lot of pain and that is why i believe that his health is what caused it.

i havent done t touch on jake, but i have lots of physical contact during play etc.

he does get mentally stimulated.

aw, that sounds so cute!

why would most not like it? im sure if most dogs were used to from being a pup, they wouldnt mind it. its just another way to communicate with them.

i dont understand what is meant by the context, it wasnt done in a bad way, i wasnt angry or mad when it was done.

i dont understand what you mean, what do you see as a tap?

I know what Joedee means and I think I know what Lozzi means to regarding the tap. If my dogs are on the sofa where I want to get, I will say "off" and they get off. Occasionally I havent said anything to them, but "tapped" or "touched" them (usually the back of their head) and they got off, none of them have ever refused or resisted.

If its coupled with a command because the dog first refused, then I can see why Joedee sees it as negative, the dog was really saying "NO" to Lozzi in the first instance. Lozzi sees it as "normal" for Jake to do this and thats why its normal to her. I think thats how I see it anyway.

I can see what you mean LOL

Read the whole thread Lozzi, will not add any advice as I think reading through alot of peeps have already given sound advice.

So just wanted to sorry to hear your having probs at the moment but hoping you get it sorted Hugs xxx

I will try to explain better .
It would be partly due to very subtle changes in body language and even owner breathing and heartrate, which dogs can hear and associate with either good or bad things happening to them. I guess another example would be if I said that as a child, you may be used to your parents giving you little taps for fun, but if you knew they were annoyed and you were a bit scared, you'd hate it esp if you were pretty sensitive. That's not a very good analogy but reading this from your first post

There is an element of Jake not feeling as normal behaviour wise, because he "snuck" and "knows he isn't allowed" ... can you say how you know he knows he isn't allowed? does he give body language to say so or is it something else?
Most dogs don't "know" but respond to people's responses.
This is not a "Jake" thing but a "dog" thing. Having worked with dogs and owners, I see a lot of this
But they way you've described this shows that Jake was not relaxed and so on, he was possibly expecting to be told off in some way - either very subtly or else by you or somene (your mum? another family member?).


This rings alarm bells. He would have had a reason for not coming - and my guess is that he was already feeling worried that he would be told off or somethin like that. Something was going on in his head. The only other explanation is that he was hurting - and really felt too bad to come out. However I tend to think it would be the first reason.


You are using the bum tapping as a "punishment" in this context - most dogs don't like being punished. It scares them esp. if they are not sure about what they have done. Because they see their owner as unpredictable esp. if there is confusion about what they are doing/allowed to do.
I know you don't see the bum tapping as a punishment really but Jake will, as he is already not doing what you ask and is already having to be "got" off.

Again, alarm bells ringing ...
sounds as if he was being passively defensive or a bit scared or possibly both. Or again, maybe he was hurting.

In this situation, not a wise move even if he is used to it. He was showing you he was very unhappy either physically or mentally ...
This is either pain or fear (or possibly even both).
It sounds as if you have done it before? If so can you explain the circumstances? I only ask because dogs will start to associate back to other experiences ... if you've ever done this before, he may have been worried you were goingto do it again, even before you did.
I can understand you were scared of being bitten, we would all be the same
Again he was clearly in a bit of a state due to his body language.
This is worrying, it was almost as if he was panicking and biting without rhyme or reason. It's not good and it will get worse if he feels threatened, which I suspect was the case
Ok well that's good - also that you were able to continue after you'd been hurt as hopefully most of it was superficial (thankfully!) That's nice

Again, how do you know he knows this? I mean, how are you sure he knows it?
That's fine, but he was clearly on the couch for a while...see, that's confusing to him.
So there are 2 occasions when he was on the couch (or previously, the bed - very similar situatoins) Treats would have been good -probably partically defused any worries he had, so making him less reactive, and also getting him off without a struggle or conflict And can you recall what your own body language, voice, tone, words etc were like?
I can understand why you were going carefully!
But I am sure this would be extremely threatening to Jake and I'd be seriously surprised if he was not showing something at this point - even just being very still. Or ears back, or tense mouth...it's very important to learn about such things as they give us signals as to wht the dog is thinking. They cannot talk to us, so use their own methods of communication which being humans, we often don't recognise, esp,the subtle ones.

That was predictable (probably by an experienced owner though) - not being critical, just factual

In this moment, Jake has learnt again that aggression "works" for him and helps him control the situation he is worried about. He will therefore use it again.
Ok I think you know all this was a big mistake - I dont understand why you continued, even after you'd had clear warnings from Jake.

Well, I do understand because what you did was a very "human" reaction

In a situation like this, the human needs to back off and let the dog get off in his own time, and then take management and training decisions completely away from the actual situation ie recognise a problem and work with it by training/behaviour modification (preferably with professional help).And keep safe!

He will soon be really not liking your hands near him in certain situations because he will think you are going to do this again - he may be OK when you are cuddling him but when there is a "situation" he is going to start going right up the "Ladder of Aggression" and this is partly because he is not being listened to....

Yes, they won't be helping. Avoid any "making" him esp, near couches, beds etc.
Either let him get off in his own time or call him or even ring the doorbell and praise him for coming off and give toys he likes ... but really, seriously do NOT confront him again as you will come off worse and Jake may end up at the vets for the last time

The irritation may well be lowering his tolerance and discomfort levels. He's very young to have physical problems and they will be affecting him, poor lad.

I hope I've showed you that both times it was not really sudden (from Jake's point of view) and that esp. the second time you were setting both yourself and Jake up to fail badly (and he will remember what he did and do it more next time ... ).

Again, context. He may well be fine when there is no anxiety/stress/confusion over where he is lying... I suspect this is at the root of the problem and he is being very misunderstood.

How does your mum deal with him, and what other family members do stuff with him, or command him? as it may have impact again on how he behaves. Eg if your mum has told him off in those situations, (very human thing to do) he is likely to react more and to not come to the human when he expects something bad to happen. Even the not coming to you is a huge warning something is amiss with him.

I've taken ages typing this (am not a fast typist ) so hope it has given some more insight?

It wasn't at all sudden, and Jake gave warnings that were not understood - this happens in many dog owning families.

Yes of course - you love him and he is a big part of your life. But if you love hm, you owe it to him to start understanding him as a dog, and educate yourself and your family as to how to think dog. Otherwise he will end up being put to sleep, I am pretty sure.You must get help.

Sorry to be so blunt. I am not saying this lightly, so please don't take offence - but you do need professional help from the right source, namely a reputable person form a reputable organsation IMO the situation could escalate and become more serious
Wys
xxx

Dogs Tap each other in Play, We Pat our Dogs for being good, Stroke them to soothe or too Teach, "smackys" for a game & to increase motivation,

My dogs Love a play Smacky, LOVE it!!!!! But if i smacked them as a correction with the same pressure they would just hate it.

Dogs know by alot of things if they are being corrected, ie if they have ignored the first command, or by your body language.

Lozzi if you want to use the tap as a command, then i would use it WITH the verbal command not after, & obviously make your tone very light!!!!, But if you use the houseline then that should do away with the tap, & tapping in the house for commands will not help your outside recall at all.(unless you do it on a line & our uber energetic)

I see it the same way, I think we all play "tappy" at some time or other,

But as you say the crucial difference is the dog had obeyed your command first, the "tappy" is an affectionate follow up.

For instance, Bandit the old soul when told to get off anything, he looks at me, the wheels turn in his head , "can I ignore her" ?? nope she means business, but I just take my time.... one paw at a time!! so I then help him off the sofa with my hands on his backside, with a "come on you old fart"!! (I"m exaggerating a little by the way") and thats the difference as you say Dawn, the dog had obeyed the "off" command" first.. thats the crucial part.

Jake on the other hand is ignoring Lozzi, so the "off" is not working , then she backs it up with a "negative" tap"

And to be honest, until she begins to see this, then we cant help her, as she is closing her mind to all help and advice we are trying to give.

Lozzi, I realy feel this needs to be addressed, your understanding of how to fix this problems, is dangerously misguided, and I am sure others more qualified and are better at explaining will tell you the same.

1) Jake is resource guarding (the bone) he had a bone your niece , lay next to him, and he warned her off... no amount of you trying to elevate her position over him, will stop him "guarding " his next bone, and it could escalate to a toy! so you need right now to understand the danger of allowing your niece to go anywhere near Jake while he has a valuable possession !

2) it also throws up the fact, you have more problems with Jake than you realise, you keep saying its only on walks he ignores me, yet we now understand he "resource guards" "has no recall" and now the "ignoring commands" one things it escalating into another,

I may be wrong , but I see it this way, getting your niece to give Jake his foo d.treats, will not stop him "guarding " any valuable objects , if she comes to close to him, and would hazard a guess he will then do the same (if he does not already) to other people who get to close to his possession.


Until you have help, you must no allow Jake any possessions he regards as valuable , when your niece is in the room/near him, either that or remove him from the room, when he is eating /playing with anything.


The last thing we want to hear is "Jake bit my young niece"!

There is a lot going on here with Jake, so maybe you can now try to understand it is more to do with your relationship with Jake, his teenage rebellious age is with him, he IS challenging you , he has no direction in his life, and thats why you are getting the problems you are.

Pleas, if you dont want to listen to any advice here.....get some one in to help you.

You must listen to someone, for your sake and Jakes!

P.S , sorry its so blunt,and I probably be shot down for this, but it needs to be said, we can all see the problem, and are becoming frustrated to the fact, you are not!!


I can guarantee you one thing Lozzi, (if you continue to ignore the help)

Jake will be come a statistic, he will become a dog with a record of biting, and as you know, some shelters will not rehome a biter!!

Lozzi please don't think people are getting at you no one thinks you are physical with Jake as a matter of course but they do want to give advice to stop the situation happening again.

I never saw the need for a house lead until I got my rescue boy but even now six years after he came to me I will use a lead to guide him rather than put us into confrontational situations.

My boy is strange very clever but not nearly as confident as he appears to be. I have never been harsh with him but he will still growl at me in certain circumstances. I got him at 6 months via rescue as he had "bitten" the child in the house over food dropped on the floor. He was very guardy with food when I got him and to this day he isn't always comfortable with close contact or his collar being held. I wonder if the child was a bit too hands on and cuddly?

I have learned to watch his body language so I can avoid or defuse situations.

I hope you get things sorted out you've had a lot of great advice from people.