On Googling for CM and Beauty I came across this US site, I've never seen it before but apparently this woman rehabs fearful dogs in a way more often used by trainers/behaviourists (ie desensitisation, etc).

She quotes from the book (so not sure where I apparently got it wrong as it seems to be just as I remember, but anyway):

http://fearfuldogs.wordpress.com/200...n-cesar-milan/

"In his book, Cesar’s Way, on page 13 Cesar mentions briefly a frightened German Shepherd named Beauty who in “..order to attach a leash to her collar, I have to chase after her, tire her out, and then wait until she submits. I may have to repeat this process a thousand times until she realizes that when I put my hand out, the best solution is for her to come to me.” "

As far as I know that's what I said. She continues:

"Now imagine if you will, for just a moment, this scene. The dog is terrified, adrenalin is coursing through her body, she’s running, her body low, tail tucked, ears down and back, glancing behind her as she tries to escape her own personal demon. Then physically exhausted she gives up, perhaps pressing herself to the floor or into a corner as her worst nightmare comes true. Perhaps you can imagine how you’d feel, your mouth going dry, the tightening of your stomach as you experienced fear- heart racing, bowel loosening fear. Or maybe it’s easier to see a dog you care about fleeing in horror, over and over, the act repeated on a daily basis for weeks. This is not humanizing a dog, it is empathizing with the experience of an animal with which we share the same parts of the brain that allows us to feel fear in the same ways".

Good description and I'm not sure why anyone would think doing that was a good idea, it's certainly not compassionate as a method.

Others would use different methods to this and get a dog who would return to them willingly.

I read that CM seems to think dogs who are fearful must still submit to his dominance and that once you go in, you can't let them "win". Luckily not everyone thinks this way.....


Wys
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The author of the fearful dog blog continues:

"Now I’ll ask you to visit the fearfuldogs.com site and have a look at the videos in which I use targeting to teach Sunny to approach me and other people. It is a simple exercise and what you are seeing is the result of hundreds of opportunities that Sunny had to practice this behavior, maybe even a thousand. Look at him, you can still see his fear, his wariness, his caution but he was never forced to run panicked, until exhaustion, to learn to ’submit’ to the request to approach my hand. Not once was he forced to ’submit’ to his demons. Looking at his body language you will still see concern, but you will also see the beginning of a cheerful willingness to be around people.

These behaviors take time and repetition because for many dogs, as Cesar is well aware of, their brains are damaged and for some dogs they will never be repaired, no matter how many time they are chased while they flee in horror, or how many times they are asked to target a hand. And if I were to ask myself the question as to which technique I would choose to test out their learning potential, you probably don’t need me to tell you that I would choose the targeting with positive reinforcement every time."

Wise words.



Wys
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I'm just going to add on her fearful dogs website - I haven't read it all but from what I have read, she seems to have not just experience with fearful dogs but also uses the modern scientific methods. She talks about Sunny who was rescued from a hoarder after a hurricane, think it was Katrina....

http://fearfuldogs.com/


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Hi,

This is just a thought...........................

As mentioned before, when training a horse, peopel don't alpha roll it; maybe because of it's strength, power or just it's sheer size.

My Son's favourtie film at the moment is "Free Willy". Now, the Killer Whale in teh film was a trained anmal. Although I don't totally agree with some of the showas, these animals love an trust their trainers 100%, just as their trainers love and trust them.

If you think of the power contained withi a 7000lb animal, it could kill it's trainer at any time. Now obviously thye don't alpha roll the whales at Sea world to get them to submit, but they treat them with positive methods of training, reinforcement, trust and most of all, understanding.

So with that in mind, why can we not (in general) treat dogs in the same way? what is it about dogs that makes people think they casn grab hold ofthem when they're afraid of something and force them to confront whatever it I that scaring them?

Laura xx

I agree with you Laura, and in fact this was one of the original arguments really

Wys
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Just to add a bit more whilst it's fresh in my mind.

Re Daddy and the aversion training.
(This is from memory but I'm pretty sure I've recalled it accurately).

Apparently it took "less than 10 minutes" to train Daddy to keep away from the snakes using the aversion method which involved in this case, the trainer calling out "break" and CM turning away with Daddy whilst the shock was applied.

If it took less than 10 minutes presumably (and obviously) it went on for maybe 8 or 9 minutes in which case Daddy received a fair amount of shocks at level 40 on a Dogtra.

Wys
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Not at all. My dog is thriving.

Laura - exactly

If the animal is many many times stronger than us then people dont even think of forcing it
Its just cos we can wrestle dogs and they are kind enough to let us that people try all this macho rubbish

anyway I am off to alpha roll Mia to blow rasberrys on her tummy - I am in great danger of getting licked

I love this man, i love his passion for dogs. His methods make total sense to me and have been very useful with all the different dogs i foster and of course my own...although they are pretty perfect!!!!

Not Millan, but he thinks and uses the same methods..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM9MBr8MEe8

I really don't understand all this anti-CM stuff. He generally gives good advice to owners (exercise, exercise and more exercise), some of his methods are questionable (alpha roll), but a lot of what he does is just common sense.

I think it is about finding a method of training which works best for you AND your dog. I have found that his hand 'biting' thing to get the dogs attention just does not work; or at least not with the level of force he is willing to use.

However some of his other methods seem to work very well..... Also we have to remember that a lot of the time he is dealing with VERY extreme cases 'red zone' dogs which would probably be PTS by the owners if the issue wasn't sorted quickly.