No, Kill is not what I find emotive,(I am a realist) its your attempt of emotional blackmail, that my comment was directed at.

Kill , Euthanize, PTS , I know the meaning of them all , a dog life., no sugar coating needed, I am also a believe in a every dog deserves a chance, but not at the cost of its well being. where as you seem to see the end justifies the means, the be all, no matter what the dog /pup has had to endure to get there .



No matter how much education there is, you cant force people to take on a dog they dont want to,

Did the vet refuse to euthanize the pup, to the owner , and gain permission to re home said pup.

OR did the vet go behind the owners back and re home the pup, as I would think if the vet took the pup in them moved it on without permission they would be in breach of their ethics,

(OT sorry!) @Smokeybear, point taken. You are right about training for the ear thing, she does not pick up words either - you can say 'walk' or 'go out' till the cows come home with no reaction but go to the coat or boot rack and she's there waiting! I always wondered why as it's the ultimate cliche, saying 'walk' in front of the dog but that makes sense if we haven't developed her listening. We had previously understood that you did the word and action at the same time but will now try the word first to get as good a response from either action or word. Not that it is really a big problem as such, to an extent the verbal commands work e.g. she would do a come from another room and I am very happy to see her responding pretty well to the actions (she is still training but we are aiming just for very solid basics rather than the clever gun-dog etc stuff).

Back on topic though, as you say about animals using body-language, it implies that a deaf dog may not be so difficult to look after in the general scheme of things if they find it easier to read body-language anyway.

my Tupac defo defo listens to voice commands! and knows words! i say down hands behind back standing bolt still he will down.
..but aye dogs rely on bodylanguage more,like i said on a previous thread,one of my dogs had to be trained with just body language..little or no praise and worked with no voice commands at all..he wasnt deaf.

..hows about bearing the responsibility and keeping the deaf pup? people always bang on about breeders being able to take back dogs throughout their lives..why isnt keeping the deaf pup the same situation

I completely disagree. A hand signal is not the same as a lure. It CAN be a lure in the beginning but it eventually becomes small and a hand signal. I do complete "silent" training sessions where I use hand signals alone. (She also does know some voice commands). It's neither poor training nor insufficient training.

It's working with a dog's "language" much more so than voice commands are. I work voice commands too, but I want the dog to respond to hand signals alone and voice commands alone.

Jackbox, that comment wasn't directed at you. I know it looks like it was since you responded right before I did, but I was writing when you apparently beat me to the posting and so your post appeared between the one I was responding to and mine! I should have quoted the post before me but I was in a rush.

The difference Jackbox is I wouldn't breed. I have no interest in it. But if I did I would NOT kill a puppy for being deaf and I would find a home for it. When I said working with a rescue I didn't mean dumping the puppy off on them. I meant keeping the puppy and working within their network to find the right home. The rescue I work with here has great resources and a great many people looking to adopt deaf dogs or puppies. Why wouldn't I take advantage of that to find a home for a puppy? I would happily pay the rescue's adoption fee FOR a person in order to find a home for the puppy. If I ever bred (which again is never going to happen) I would be super careful about it so that if a deaf puppy happened I would either be able to keep it myself because I could handle another puppy or I would keep the puppy until I found the right home for it. Either way I don't see the problem. Are you telling me if you were a breeder you wouldn't try to find home for every one of your puppies, even the ones with "issues" (whatever they may be?), that you would keep every single one of them? It's impressive if you have that kind of room, but most breeders cannot keep every puppy they breed and so homes must be found. I don't see the problem with keeping the puppy and working with a rescue to help find the proper home for a deaf one. The one I work with here actually has no problem finding homes for them. They've done an amazing job networking and educating people about their deaf dogs.

The ones who end up in rescue are the products of backyard breeders who should not be breeding. Many dogs bred by those sorts of people end up in shelters anyway, ones who are healthy and with all senses, because they don't care who they sell them to (case in point: the guy who was selling puppies in a parking lot). The pair of puppies I transported actually ended up in rescue BECAUSE he was going to have them killed but someone from the rescue happened to be in that parking lot at the right time and told him she'd take the puppies. The guy wasn't dumping them in rescue. They were lucky.

I know several deaf dogs, many do agility. They are all various breeds and one was also limited with his sight.

All the ones I know live full lives running free and being trained to whatever standard suits the owners. I also know of a deaf dog who is shown, no one in the showing community knows it is deaf and it has taken and passed the KGC at shows!

I do find the deaf pointer pup more difficult when I have him around---but I don't think he'd have been an easy dog with hearing

I think there are a lot more good homes around for deaf dogs than many people imagine, you just have to know where to look and have a bit of patience waiting for the right one.

I don't think they should be 'culled' at all. Just homed responsibly with the new owners pointed in the right direction to get help training if they feel they need it.

rune

I have a breed with deafness in their lines and I breed the occasional litter from quality, health tested parents and I think you have to have a plan.

Just because the parents are BAER clear doesnt mean the progeny will be fully hearing and I have had puppies which were deaf in one ear. This does not affect their quality of life and all new owners are made fully aware of the puppies status. All my puppies are BAER tested and the information is collated for any further investigation by interested parties.

I feel let down by 'big' breeders in my breed who are not testing and prefer to hide their heads in the sand. For all I know, the top stud dogs may be deaf in one ear as they have never been tested. At least I know I am doing the right thing and acting upon the information I have gleaned.

Over the years I have built up an extended family of people who own puppies I have bred. Amongst these people there are a select few who I feel would be able to commit to a deaf puppy, should I ever breed one.

I would never, ever cull a deaf puppy but as much as I would like to be, I am not the right home for one as I dont have enough time to commit to him/her.

AS with all my puppies, I would have a deaf puppy back at any time, but throughout all the years I have only ever had one puppy back - and in that case I went round and asked for her to be returned so I hope I have reasonably good judgement of the people I let them go to.

I know not all breeders are like me but it is wrong to cull deaf puppies as in the right hands they just lead perfectly normal lives - they dont know any different and its not their fault.

Thalice's Mum

I completely disagree. A hand signal is not the same as a lure. It CAN be a lure in the beginning but it eventually becomes small and a hand signal. I do complete "silent" training sessions where I use hand signals alone. (She also does know some voice commands). It's neither poor training nor insufficient training.

Oh dear I seem I am not explaining myself correctly.

Most people use luring to begin training and then it is developed into a hand signal. I never said a hand signal was the SAME as a lure! If a dog does not respond to verbal cues it is because a dog is either DEAF, UNTRAINED, CONFUSED, or UNDERTRAINED. The only way to TEST if a dog REALLY understands WORDS is to use them when out of sight etc.

It's working with a dog's "language" much more so than voice commands are. I work voice commands too, but I want the dog to respond to hand signals alone and voice commands alone.

Er yes so do I, hence my post, in response to the poster who says her dog only responds to verbal signals if used in conjunction with hand signals! There is no point in using a hand signal when my dog is doing a 300 yard sendaway, (I tend to like my dogs to look where they are going)

It is highly ridiculous to use a whistle when the dog is beside you, and if you are doing film work you want silent signals.

Using two signals TOGETHER can be confusing and the dog is not LEARNING how to listen if it is WATCHING you.

So I am not exactly sure WHAT you are " completely disagreeing with me about?"

both of us appear to be very poor communicators!

it is wrong to cull deaf puppies

In your opinion. This subject, like hunting, eating meat, abortion etc will have those who are pro and those who are anti it.

Those who are already polarised will not change their outlook and sometimes we have to just agree that we disagree.

There is no "one" correct view because ALL circumstances are different eg dog, owner, breeder, environment, resources etc.

There are pros and cons to most decisions in life and I think all we can reasonably expect is that individuals do what THEY think is best at the time for all concerned.

It is easy to say "x" is right and "y" is wrong, but not all cases are identical.

Perran the pointer was due to be pts at 12 weeks ---before that he was destined to go as working dog to Holland. The vet refused and we found a home for him. The breeder simply didn't have enough contacts in any way to have found a suitable home.

I sympathise with him but often if you ask for help it is around and he was happy to hand him over to the new owner. However he was not happy to hand the KC registration over---which she wanted for rally o and agility, so he is now on the working register. No problem but obviously the breeder didn't want it known that he bred a deaf pup---that leaves a nasty taste.

rune