Thanks for that,

Will be busy getting dogs ready for SKC Champ show next day so must try to remember ro video it.

One of my breeds has been around since viking times...hardly new.We have a breed hip score average of 12and in my 8 years in the breed the only other real problem I have heard of is a couple of cases of glaucoma...spread over many years....these dogs were swiftly removed from any breeding plans,the details made public and then lived out their lives as loved pets.We have a very open minded breed club that encourages (and recieves) any health issues to be addressed...and dealt with.
Elks live well into teen years in general ,often still showing(and winning) at 11 and 12 years old....not bad for pedigree dogs with a limited gene pool(we only register approx 120/140 puppies a year!

Archer, do you not think the very fact that your breed sufferers with Hip Dysplasia is a problem?

The Elkhound is one of the breeds with possible ancient origins and modern DNA techniques have now been able to reveal the actual history to a large extent. There has been one trace of Scandinavian descent revealed in a paper by Wayne et al, [1] where a mitochondrial DNA study has found common ancestry with, in one haplotype the Jamthund, and in another haplotype, a collection of diverse breeds including the Springer Spaniel, Papillion, Mexican Hairless, Siberian, Border Terrier and Chow. This is from a sample of 9 Elkhounds.

Another later study, Ostrander et al [2], groups the Elkhound with modern European breeds with no trace of ancient Scandinavian origins, suggesting that the breed is a modern recreation.

The technique used in the second study was one using nuclear DNA, which gives a much wider base for breed identification than would be available with mtDNA, but the disadvantage is that nDNA can be jumbled and lost through the recombination process, though I believe this is kept to a minimum by the use of the SNPs method.

So, from a total of 14 Elkhound in the two studies, a tail female line in just two of them was found to trace back to Scandinavian origins. Not a large sample of dogs but a good indication that the breed for the greatest part, is diverse in its origins if not its present gene complement, and largely comprises of modern European breeds.

And I think this diversity of origin applies to many breeds, the concept of a 'breed' being relatively modern. It's little more than a century since registries began and gene pools became more or less closed. Previous to this, it is thought that breeding was very much a random process as dogs were mostly freerange and working qualities were preserved by means of post zygotic selection, which ensured a regular input of new genes. And in the 'breeds' better described as landraces, such as the Flock Guardians for example, the transhumance migrations ensured a regular gene flow across continents.

Today's pre-zygotic selection, where mates are chosen, often by matching similarity in pedigree and phenotype, there is a constant depletion from the gene pool. In addition to this we have factions within breeds that further limit the available gene pool. Not just the work/show divide but also within the show lines. In some breeds eg Cockers, this extends as far as colour breeding where solids and partis are kept separate for fear of producing mismarked pups.


[1] http://www.grapevine.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm

[2] http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/press_rel.../dogbreeds.pdf

That was really interesting - thank you Pod.

What do you mean??? The fact we hip score does not mean the suffer from HD...it is a precausionary measure.An average score of 12 shows the breed has in general good hips.My boy has just been scored at 9(and eyes tested clear)

Same here my girls back 10 the breed av is 18. paddywak are you trying to suggest because its a cross breed it doesnt need tested. I've read of few of your threads on cross breeding and I honestly cant see at all where yuo coming from but maybe its just me.

Thanks for that POD but I am afraid the articles are a bit beyond my comprehension.

http://www.petcrest.com/nelkhhi.html

http://www.breederretriever.com/dog-...n-elkhound.php

http://www.akc.org/breeds/norwegian_...nd/history.cfm

The gene pool is large enough in the UK to allow for just solid to solid and parti to parti matings in show types, with working types they are obviously bred for working ability above looks. In European countries they still breed partis to solids. It's usually a pet breeder who breeds parti to solids in the UK, it shouldn't be done unless the breeder is experienced and has a very good reason for doing so. You could end up with a whole litter of mismarks. There are 16 standard colours so there's no need to breed non standard colours. A dog may be the best example of a breed physically but if it's the wrong colour it may not even be placed .

All they are stating is that although breeds such as the Pharoah Hound and the Norweigen Elkhound look like their ancestors, the modern dogs have actually been recreated by breeding together more modern breeds.

This excerpt from one of the above links sums it up well