Totally agree on both points! Any budding filmmakers/undercover reporters on Dogsey?

Hi Mini

I do see exactly where you are coming from...badly bred, mass production dogs with unknown health defects , winding up in rescue/poor home environs etc etc. Of course that needs addressing, but maybe not in a programme about the genetic implications of breeding to type....or at least, not as the main thrust of it.

I also agree that the KC is a governing body with many good points, five years ago, I might have said predominantly so. They have done some amazing work, in many many fields. What I feel increasingly uncomfortable about are the perceived changes in the show ring from when I first got involved in exhibiting (1974). Then it was about proudly exhibiting your stock and maybe winning something...increasingly it has become winning as an endorsement of type, and type and exaggerations are being bred for in the ring. All this is endorsed by top judges (the world over, not just UK) and the granting of CCs etc can exacerbate this effect.

Breeding dogs from limited gene pools (with closed or nearly-closed stud books) has, in evolutionary terms happened very recently. The effects are already among us...I am aghast when I visit breed club web site and examine codes of ethics and health pages in many breeds.... MRI scanning and ultrasound recommended as screening, to identify traits which are man-made. All presented as how science can help dogs, (after the event, once conditions have been bred-in) rather than intervention to prevent such conditions in the first instance. To me it is simply the wrong way around. One good example here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7547883.stm

We cannot help mistakes made in good faith in the past in the absence of science. However we can do something about it for the future, and to do so we will need to move forward with an open mind, perhaps leaving behind the vested interests of the past. Not to do so, will mean a growing list of screening prior to breeding in the absence of addressing underlying problems.

Frequently, clubs and breeders within them 'blame' BYB...and poor practice is undeniably a potential factor. However, many, many 'top' breeders are increasingly disillusioned with the show scene, and 'type worship' and its effects on bloodlines.

Furthermore, we now have so much more knowledge that could be put to good effect. As an example, a number of influential breeders and others have been trying to lobby the KC to have a public database with health scores, showing breeding lines going back 6+ generations. This is already done in FCI countries, one example is Finland, see KoiraNet, with example of my girl's sire here:

http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmK...14993/02&R=189

and it can even add the dam, to give a 'virtual' pedigree...thus I can demonstrate an 8 generation pedigree for my dog using the Finnish Kennel Club....how much more sensible it would be to be able to do it in the UK for all our breeds? Why is this not supported by our governing body? It is not.

On balance, I support the KC, but there is room for improvement and chances to critically examine systems and processes that may help future breeding in the UK should be welcomed without resorting to 'us and them'...it will solve nothing and merely perpetrate the status quo, by creating polarised positions.

I view this programme as an opportunity to move forward, based on the science under-pinning the research presented. It will be a shame if it is rejected out of hand due to preconceived ideas. All the more so, for pedigree dogs in the UK.

Mary

Brilliant Post Mary

I agee the KC and pedigree dog breeding need improvement...but all I can see this programme doing is putting people off going down the 'reputable' route for buying a puppy.
It will give designer x breed etc 'breeders' more ammo for charging astronomical prices and confuse people even more unless the programme shows an unbias 2 sided discussion.
When oh when will people realise that 'pedigree' or 'registered'is no more of a guarantee than a log book on a car guarantees a car is roadworthy.
I won't be watching....hope its not just a chance for the prog makers to slag of the KC but feel it will be..We have to work with that we have(ie the Kc) not destroy it.The media needs to educate people about the correct and proper way to research and buy a puppy.Not every pedigree breed is in a bad state of health and not every breeder is breeding purely to win at shows.

...and conversely, (while acknowledging the very real risk you point out) if pedigree breeders grasp the nettle and clean up their act it may have the opposite effect in the long run. I certainly wouldn't wish to give the impression of and/or endorsing the 'slagging off' of the KC...far from it, but I would go so far as to say that pedigree breeds are in decline from a health perspective....and the solution to help turn it around is within our reach .

Yes, agreed, educate the public on buying a healthy puppy, but please let us also educate ourselves in order that we may make informed choices for dogs as a whole.

Mary

I think this is very sweeping statement...I have 2 breeds and although there are always things that need to be kept an eye on they are IMO in a very healthy state....and I am sure that there are many other breeds out there in the same situation.Buying a pedigree dog of a healthy breed from a reputable breeder is everyones best route to ensure they have a healthy friend.

[quote=MaryS;1456461]



Breeding dogs from limited gene pools (with closed or nearly-closed stud books) has, in evolutionary terms happened very recently. The effects are already among us...I am aghast when I visit breed club web site and examine codes of ethics and health pages in many breeds.... MRI scanning and ultrasound recommended as screening, to identify traits which are man-made.


Limited gene pools in kC pedigree dogs? Which breeds are affected?

I think this is very sweeping statement...I have 2 breeds and although there are always things that need to be kept an eye on they are IMO in a very healthy state....and I am sure that there are many other breeds out there in the same situation.Buying a pedigree dog of a healthy breed from a reputable breeder is everyones best route to ensure they have a healthy friend.

I agree Archer - in my main breed -Borzoi- it is the same - healthy but just need to keep and eye on and make sure you buy from a reputable breeder.

and getting back on topic I doubt if I will see the programme as I am in Scotland and don't have Sky.

Sorry about sweeping statement.....the premise is founded in basic population genetics, thus all purebreeds subject to artificial selection are affected to some extent (those which have been more recently created usually have greater genetic diversity). Thus, registration by any governing body does not affect the genetic picture in this regard - selective breeding does.

Have been searching for papers/articles to reference/help explain, without going overboard . Maybe some of these will help....

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/2...=2008&month=06

http://www.canine-genetics.com/gendis.htm

http://www.canine-genetics.com/Price.htm

Judging from the trailer info I expect some of this may crop up next week.....

Ah but you will someone said it was on on Tuesday in place of Bonekickers but in Scotland Bonekickers was on on Friday. It's on BBC1 22nd August at 9pm