hello elaine
not sure ,i dont know ,the details will have to check the web site

Excellent post Dyane, and I can't recommend Barbara Sykes highly enough.

Thanks for putting up all the info Elaine. I do remember Poppy being a rescue etc. I am not saying your dogs don't have fulfilling lives - what I am trying to say is that a border collie from working stock needs MORE from a pet home than the average breed. You need to go that extra mile to make sure the collie has a job to do, that it can channel its considerable energy, intellect and instinct into something constructive, thereby eradicting the chance of boredom and frustration.

I also am not saying that Poppy is aggressive. I would suggest she is a frustrated worker - ie desperately needs something to do but isn't yet receiving the stimulation required to help her become calm and relaxed. I am confident you will get there with her, as you are clearly 100% committed. However, I will reiterate again that you should definitely speak with a collie experienced person who can view Poppy and give you appropriate advice. Barbara Sykes is the woman for you

A good working collie will only grip (the nose) as a last resort, any other nip or bite (such as on the backside) is seen as a dirty grip and should be discouraged. Our collies work (and have worked) numerous breeds of sheep, and their method is always the same.

I'm sorry but I disagree, how can you say that my home is not an ideal place to bring up a Border Collie, without knowing anything about where I live? Just because Poppy is not a working dog in the sense that she is not working on a farm does not mean that she will not have a happy and fulfilling life with me!
As regards to the training that is in hand, puppy classes start next week and she can, if she is good enough, go on to agility and flyball at the same venue. She gets lots and lots of exercise and stimulating games....she has jobs to do at home.
It hurts me to think that you may think that I am not capable of giving Poppy all that she needs. I can assure you that I will do my uppermost to ensure that both my dogs get all that they need.
Elaine x

Moobli, I have no wish to get into a whys and wherefores with you. How wonderful that none of your dogs nip, I only wish that everyone had such perfectly behaved dogs.You are obviously a credit to the BC world. I too have had BC that never nipped but neverthe less would of been working dogs. But I have also owned 2 that did, and it is something that can be discouraged over time. I think we all understand that you feel they all should be working and have the ideal life of where you live, but unfortunately we don't all have that. I can feel that you are frustrated that people have BC's which do not go to working homes. However Poppy, and Bruce came out of PF, I do not know for definate but I would imagin from workers or working ancestors, however we are talking of puppies that are rescued, my understanding of Bruce was that he was in a windowless building with a mother and nine siblings, practically staving.

I therefore feel that the dogs you used are health checked and purpose breed to sheep herd. These are not, and I once did own one years ago that was and she was a notorious nipper. But as I say it can be worked on and channelled

There is an excellent non-fictional book written by an American author, Donald McCaig, about his trip to Scotland to find a working sheepdog to take back to his farm in Virginia called "Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men".

The note to the reader at the end of the book says this :-

"If this has persuaded you to buy a border collie for a pet, I have done you and your dog a disservice. If you don't have work for a border collie, or time to train it properly, your bright young border collie will invent his own work, and chances are you won't like it.
There are dozens of dog breeds bred to be good pets. If a pet is what you seek, you should choose among them."

YS - I am not saying our dogs are perfectly behaved ... god forbid However, the point I am trying (but obviously failing!) to get across is that a border collie (as you well know) needs to be mentally and physically stimulated, even more so when in a pet home as they don't have the natural channel of working sheep for their energy, intellect and instinct.

I am not saying that collies cannot lead fulfilling and happy lives in pet homes - it just needs a very dedicated, ingenious and thoughtful owner. I, myself, bought my first border collie primarily as a pet, but soon found that he needed far more than I could offer him as a *pet* owner and so started herding training with him.

I do believe that an ideal home for a border collie is a good working home - however, this is far from an ideal world and so as long as collie owners take on this breed prepared to work hard to make sure their dogs lead fulfilling and satisfying lives I have no problem with that.

I have also said on a number of occasions throughout this thread that I am confident Elaine will work through Poppy's problems and she will end up a very happy and well adjusted dog.

so what you are saying is we have no right ,to have a border collie ,in a pet home i have had three and they have all lived happy lives with us . lots of collies go to farms to be worked ,and dont have a happy life at all ,there is many in rescues ,that have been handed in as failed work dogs . and it takes a pet owner to come along ,and undo what the farmer , has done ,and damaged the collies . border collie rescues ,have had there fair share of these dogs to sort out

I think it depends on the dog...not all collies will have a strong herding insticnt and therefore not all collies would thrive as working dogs.... although I do totally understand what you're saying Kirsty as we chose NOT to get a BC after we lost Mo, as you know, as we knew we just didn't have the time to dedicate to it. We were offered a pup not too long ago (at a rescue centre we volunteer at) as we are an 'experienced' collie home..but we said no as there are not enough hours in the day!

I am sure, as you've said, Elaine will sort this out and Poppy will be fine,Poppy is one of the lucky ones as Elaine is looking for soloutions and is obviously aware of the needs of a collie and their drives.

Collies can and do have fantastic lives in pet homes.