Elderly GSD and Puppy Gsd??

HI Everyone, I was just hoping maybe somebody could give me some pointers here.

I am new here (just in case you had not noticed lol) and just to explain so you can see the whole picture I will explain our situation.

We are fosterers for a GSD rescue and 4 weeks ago took in a foster, a lovely 12 year old lady, she is so sweet and kind, and grateful for any attention you give to her.
She has had a hard time in the past, and we decided to adopt her, she seemed to settle in so quickly to our lifestyle, and adores our children.

4 weeks after getting her, we had discussed at length getting a gsd puppy, and when hubby was out at a farm, he came home with an 8 week old pup.

Our 12 year old lady was quite bewildered at this little intruder, and I have to be honest we have been very easy and soft with her due to the bad time she has gone through.

We did understand that she more than likely would not welcome the pup in quite so readily and limited contact just in case she felt he was really in her face.

The first few days she ran away from him if he went anywhere near here, and everytime he did this, we moved him away and said no firmly.

Last week my hubby took the pup to the vets for worming, frontline and his first vaccination. Pup came back feeling very sorry for himself and rather nauseous, so he curled up at my feet and went to sleep.

The older dog just jumped up and pounced on him growling and snarling, and wrapped her mouth around her face.

Now while I can understand this is going to time for her to adjust to, surely this behaviour is completely unacceptable now when she did this we yelled at her, and she immediately walked away.

However whenever the pup is walking around if she thinks she can pounce on him she will do.

I have spoke to a behaviourist who clearly thinks this is the elder dog bullying the younger one and she has to be put back in her place, which I have no problem with.

My problem is this, how do i get my elderly lady to accept the pup without all the aggression??

I know dogs have their own codes and as much as we try to humanize them I know they are not human, and as such do not think like us.

I was also told the more dogs I have and the less chance there would be of this bullying.

My other problem is, we are still fosterers and after a friend came the other day with her dog, once again the friends dog was nice and friendly and my elder dog did actually go for him in a very aggressive manner, which again I found mad because he was so friendly towards her.

So does have any ideas on how I can make this adjustment easier for the elder dog?? The younger dog is not fazed at all by big dogs due to being on a farm were there were lots of big dogs.

Also we have this same aggression from the elder dog when she is being walked she will snarl growl and try to get to other dogs.

I was (perhaps madly) thinking of getting another younger dog for the pup to socialise with and to grow up with, in the hope that the younger dog would be content with that, as the elder dog is definitely not being friendly, and another major concern is I do not want the pup to grow up and to associate other dogs with aggresion and fear, I want a confident pup who is happy to mix with other dogs.

I hope someone can help me, as I am quite adamant that I have made a commitment to both dogs and I am going to see this through and both dogs are staying.

Oh and today when my hubby had hold of the pup, the older dog has come over sniffing the pup, and we were praising her for not trying to bite him, when all of a sudden she just snarled and tried to put her mouth around his head, again it seemed to be totally unjustified.

Many thanks for any help.
Tracy.

4 weeks is not really long enough to get to know a rescue dog with a whole load of baggage. There is a honeymoon period which lasts several weeks before you get to see them for real, warts and all. I would have given her much more time to settle into your home and get to know your family before potentially destabilising her with a boisterous demanding pup. Personally I would return the pup to the breeder and give your rescue dog a fighting chance to settle in. You can get another pup when the time is right.

Hi Maxine, Thank you for replying.

I thought the honeymoon period lasted for about 2-3 weeks? I can understand with different dogs it can possibly take more or less time to settle in, but as strange as this may sound, within one week the elder dog had settled in. She had started to bark at people coming to the door, and the window cleaner, I accept what you say that maybe she did need longer to find her feet so to speak.

I had always presumed that with dogs being pack animals they were happier in numbers more than one so they had one or more of their own kind around??

I see your point about the pup, but that does not detract from the fostering issue.

We have waited a long time to foster and to be able to help GSD's as we love the breed, and with so many being destroyed every year just because there are so many of them, its not something I want to give up on before I have really started, so either way this issue does need dealing with.

That brings me to another odd point, before the older dog came to us she spent a week on a farm with many other dogs, and then a week in a foster home directly prior to us with at least 12-13 other dogs and had no issue at all with any of them, so why is she so different in our home, than what she was in the other foster homes??

She has been around lots of other dogs prior to being here and her behaviour is so out of character to what we were told about her background.
We were told from the other fosterers experience of this dog that she has no issue at all with other dogs, so as a mere human I have to ask myself what has changed that has made her dislike other dogs so quickly??

Again thank you for your advice Maxine, but as I said in my original post this is an issue I wish to resolve with both dogs.
In the past in my youth I have not always been as commited as I should have been, and I am determined to solve this and to honour the commitment I have made to both dogs.
Thanks.
Tracy.

Could you find a behaviourist who actually knows about dogs? Sorry but that`s about the most useless piece of advice I`ve heard for ages...and the thought that you`ve got a bewildered old dog who who is poorly socialised and you get told to `put her in her place` has me fuming.
Does the Rescue you foster for have anyone who can advise? If this dog hasn`t been socialised round other dogs it could be a bad time to have a pup in the house. She can be retrained and socialised, but it will take time. You have to change her view of other dogs are threats and that takes time. Shouting at her will just make her more unsettled and confirm her suspicion that the other dog is bad news.
BTW my old GSD used to carry a tiny kitten round by it`s head when my ex brought it home. She was very gentle and was actually trying to mother it, but I sent it back to its mum because I could just see a horrible accident in the making!
eta: I doubt that 13 dogs were kept all together in her last home - can you find out if she was in a run?

Hi Claire, Thank you for responding. Yes I could contact a different behaviourist and hopefully, given time this can be resolved.

Since the pup came in, the older lady has had her attention doubled and treats, and everytime she walks past him without snapping at him, we praise her and reward her for good behaviour.

All the children go to the older dog before the pup as they adore her and she is very much loved and wanted.

I too have worried a lot about the possible consequences if she did turn really nasty, and as a result of that I was advised to purchase a puppy crate for the pup, which I have done.

I make sure the older dog has her space and time outs away from the pup, if he is getting over excited and trying to get to her I distract him with toys and play with him, so she can rest, but all the time I can see she is keeping one eye on him.

I also bought a crate for the older dog, but its entirely her choice if she uses it as a hideaway from the pup, she will not be forced to use it, but as I type she is on her duvet,curled up asleep in the crate with the door wide open. I thought maybe this would increase her sense of security and make her feel safer and let her know that she has got a place she can go to, to escape from him.

My main question, getting to the root of the problem is, with help can my 12 year old sweetheart be turned around and be less aggressive??

I understand she may have been unsocialised and accept it will take time, but if it can be resolved through a behaviourists I am happy to go down that root.
Thanks.
Tracy.

Hi Claire, She spent time at my co-ordinators home for a week and was left to roam freely and was fine with her dogs, which vary in age, and she said she was fine with the other dogs and no problem at all, which is was I said earlier, why is she behaving differently in my home??
Is it because we are the only ones to go through the honey moon period with her??

Oh I wish I had the answers, I have done a lot of reading online and spoke to several people who have done lots of work with GSD's and they are astounded at a dog of such an age trying to attack a puppy,they say they have never heard of anything like it.
Tracy.

P.S. My co-ordinator has 9 dogs of her own all different breeds and sizes.

Sorry Angelis - I was a bit taken aback by the advice you were given which meant I didn`t read your post properly. There is obviously something stressing your dog and I`m sure it can be addressed but personally I`d ask a qualified behaviourist in to observe her in the home. If you find an APDT or APBC qualified one at least you know you`re getting someone who will give sound advice.
I do hope the situation improves soon and wish you all the best in dealing with it.

Hiya Tracy. First, well done for fostering and trying to help out this wonderful breed.

Regarding your dilemma, have you had the elderly bitch checked over by your vet, just to make sure she isn't in any pain, which could in turn be making her act aggressively towards your pup?

If there are no health issues with your bitch, I wonder if she just is one of those dogs who doesn't tolerate pups. My own GSD bitch can be very growly and grumpy around a young pup. She either wants to completely ignore them and stay out of their way, or else she grumps and growls at them. As soon as they are old enough to play with, her attitude towards them tends to change, although she can still be a real old grump in the house. From your post, it sounds as though your bitch is not actually attacking the pup?

I dealt with this situation in my home, by removing the bitch to behind a babygate whenever she had a go at the pup and left her for some *time out* before reintroducing her back into the same room as myself and the pup. If she grumped again, out she went again. It took around 3-4 days before she started to show some improvement. Even now (at 7 years old) she can be a bit of a bully with the younger dogs and doesn't like other dogs in her face, but she definitely improved after the training she had.

I would also speak to the rescue you foster for and see what they suggest, as well as seeking advice from a good behaviourist (if you deem that necessary).

I am sure you will work out the problems between the two dogs, and they will hopefully be able to live together with few problems, even if they never become best friends (although, having said that, my older bitch and the collie pup she bossed mercilessly initially are the very best of friends).

Good luck and keep us informed.

Oh, and I am very pleased to see how committed you are to both of your dogs

some dogs, simply, will never get allong,thats a fact ,and you may be in that situation ,iv got two that need constant supervision,if left alone they will fight ,both are head strong and dont back down ,if i were to let it go they would work it out but one might be dead ..in the house they obey me and all is fine ...outside its a different story ,gived time your pup may stand up for itself and there may be no troubles ,but your older girl will exert herself no matter what dog is new to the house ,some itmes an alpha dog that is not challanged will alwas chalange ,iv got a friend whos dog was like this ,untill he brought the dog to my place were my pack put his dog in its place.it worked and the dog now sees thing a little differently.you could do the same buy telling your dog that you are in charge, i never advicate pinning a dog if you dont have the experience but i do this all the time to keep it fresh in the dogs mind who is the boss,there are lots of reasonse your dog will do this...this was my case ,yours might be different ...good luck...pic please

Hi Moobli and 3dognight , Thank you both for responding and offering advice. When you say she is not attacking I guess you are right as she is not actually piercing his skin, but this could be due to the fact that all her teeth are worn down, or its just simply a case of her telling him, hey this is my territory and as time goes on they are both going to have to accept that.

I have crates for both dogs now and when Heena has had enough of Zeus she goes into her crate and knows he is NOT allowed in there, its her space.

Just as when Zeus is being really playful with her we pick him up and play with to distract him, if we are busy preparing tea, we crate Zeus and leave Heena to follow us in the kitchen.
Mainly because I am not at the point yet were I feel I could trust the pup not to pursue Heena and annoy her, but nor can I trust Heena not to nip him while we are out of the room

Heena was taken to the vets as soon as we adopted her, the following morning in fact,lol, we knew from the rescue that she had arthiritis and was/is on Metacam 5 units per day for pain.

However when she went to the vets he diagnosed heena with the early stages of arthiritis and we are keeping her on Metacam for now, although we have considered omega 3 and monoglucosamides (bet I spelt that wrong )
She also has a grade 3 heart murmur which we were not aware of at that time, the vet said her ear was blacker than the black hole of calcutta and she had a cough.

She was prescribed antibiotics for the cough which cleared it up nicely, and eardrops twice a day 2 drops, which have helped hugely, the vet checked her out a week later and said she is doing fine now, the heart murmur needs regular checks incase it deteriotes.

Apart from all of the above she is very cheerful, always has a cuddle and a kiss for everyone.

Although wait for her, I was reading on here last night different topics etc, and one was about training tips I think it was called, and I thought okay tomorrow I will do that.

So this morning I put Zeus on his lead (to stop him jumping on Heena as he gets so excited when near her) and I had Heena close, and I got a bowl of sausages and some ham

I told Heena to sit and gave her some sausage and then did the same with Zeus, I contineud this for about 15 mins, and amazingly despite Zeus sitting right next to her(though he was controlled via the lead) she did not once try to snap at him or bite him

So I think maybe if I do this every single day maybe its a way of getting Heena to accept that everything has to be shared like attention, treats,etc.
Could this be the case??

I would be very happy to accept them getting on better even if they would never be best friends, peace sounds good.

I also accept its going to take time and patience to sort this out and I am more than happy to put that time and effort in to make things better