Spray collars (air)

Can i have your honest opinions on this please,

Rof gets his stitches out today so will be allowed off lead again within the next few days, I've spoken to the vet about him having another accident as both myself and my partner are concerned about him not being as lucky next time around, we dont want to keep him on lead really and the vet suggested this air spray collar, i have no experience in any kind of spray collar so dont know the pro's and con's etc.

Rof does chase but also just potters along with the girls and will come back but not until the chase is done so really we want to stop the chase completely again to avoid any injury, he is responding well to the leave command on lead which we have had to use but off lead we both know he'll ignore us.

So would u say the collar is a good idea or is there anything else we could try? his recall is spot on except when he's in chase mode so its not like we could work on his recall as once he's gone he's actually gone x

Personally I think this kind of thing a) leaves too many opportunities to create more problems and b) probably isn't that effective in this kind of situation. I actually used a Citronella bark collar short-term with a previous dog and she soon learnt to empty the cannister then continue barking - wish I'd had a resource like Dogsey to refer to before I even bothered trying it!
Anyway, the potential for mistiming or creating a negative association with something in the environment is definately something to consider. Just as an example, dog has an air collar on, dog chases after rabbit, but passes by another dog at the very moment you hit the spray button. Next time, there's a dog in view in the distance, next time there's a dog that barks - these coincidences could then lead your dog to believe that other dogs are a negative thing, because something bad (the spray) happens when other dogs are around. Substitute "other dogs" for "humans", "cars", "trains" etc. and you have the potential to casue more problems than you started.
Also a dog in "chase mode" is often far too deep in concentration to be bothered by this. Even if it caught his attention 90% of the time, it only takes that 10% for him to run across a road mid-chase and be involved in an RTA.
If it's just as something to catch his attention then maybe look at training recall to a whistle?
Have you read the David Ryan article on chasing dogs? May be worth a look if not
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

No i havn't read it, will have a look at it this afternoon, thank you

Personally I wouldnt use one for many reasons

Not the least my friends tried one and it broke and went off when it shouldnt and she ended up attacking one of their other dogs

imo it still is a recal issue - just the chase is an extra big distraction so you need to work more on it

exactly what I am having to do with Mia, work on transferring the love of the chase to a toy and then teaching her a special 'here comes the amazing toy' word to break tru her focus

and keeping her in safe areas while I am working on it


(and it is working - on sat I managed to call her off some horses who were coming towards us on a narrow path!!)

What would be best to use as a recall reward then as he's not a toy or foodie?

Im more than happy to work my a*se off on this issue as it could be dangerous seeing as he is very accident prone

You can work on a dog's "drive" for toys, trying to find an article now but it's basically picking a special toy, playing with it yourself, making it seem sooo exciting but putting it away before the dog gets to interact with it. You then build up to letting the dog play with it, slowly. Also have heard of people having success by tying toys (e.g. fluffy soft toys) to a lunge whip and whipping the toy back and forth (a bit like a cat toy), especially popular in dogs with high prey drive.

Well actually his recall is NOT spot on because when you NEED it you do not have it.

He will recall when there is nothing more exciting to do.

So you need to train some more.

Unfortunately as your dog has rehearsed chasing many times, he has become extremely successful as he has been reinforced for this.

How is he reinforced? The adrenaline rush. For some dogs chasing is the reinforcer, not the catching, killing or eating, it releases endorphins that make them feel good.

This is why those of us with extremely high prey drive dogs redirect that behaviour onto an appropriate item ie a ball.

So I would play the two toy game if your dog likes balls, making yourself the centre of the game so the dog learns that the game begins and ends with you.

The way I do this is to throw a toy to my left as the dog is returning I wave the other toy and he drops it as I throw to right and so on.

If we remember that a dog will go through an electric fence to chase or mate but will not necessarily come back through it to home then we might suggest that an air spray collar would not be sufficiently aversive for your dog.

So, where do you go then, do you turn to citronella or mustard?

What if that does not work, move on to an electric collar?

This is the probem with using positive punishment, you can only escalate it.

In this particular case there is no issue regarding emptying the reservoir as of course the action is not triggered by barking but via remote control so this is irrelevant.

There is an issue if, due to your timing, the dog is punished at the same time as (insert relevant object or animal) appears and the dog will pair the action with the arrival of said object or animal.

so perhaps more training and/or being picky where you let your dog off may be the way to go?

Would i have any problems with the other 2 if i took a toy out do u think?
Shila is toy motivated and des shows a interest in them x

If im asking dumb questions i apologise i just want to get this right x

Well a hungry dog is foodie, the key mistake many people make is to use treats ON TOP of their food. I use the daily ration. See below.

Why can’t I get a reliable recall?

‘Come’ is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.
Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

At some point in time, usually from around 6 – 10 months, depending on the individual, “Velcro” dog will morph into “Bog off” dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

How and when do I start with a puppy?

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.
Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:
• Come from across the room.
• Come from out of sight
• Come no matter who calls
• Come even if you are busy doing something else
• Come even if you are asleep.
• Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
• Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

• Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
• Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
• If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
• Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
• Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the “value” of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog’s life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

What about an older or rescue dog?

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the day’s food ration up into small bags (between10 – 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying “too bad” and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your “helper” simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it’s getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog’s name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

HTH

Thank you, Unfortunalty i dont drive and the only place i can get to is the woods and fields which are full of lovely things to chase