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Wysiwyg
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25-03-2010, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Quick point I've been train far longer than I've been using e collars. I like them because there effective and humane.
Additional point no pain involved ever! you always use the colalr at the level the dog just feels, no higher.

Adam
I know which method you are using Adam, and yes it's negative reinforcement and it's using "discomfort" - the dog knows it can and does hurt, otherwise it does not work.

If you pressed my arm and it did not hurt, I'd not avoid what I was doing. If you pinched my arm, I'd probably pay a lot more attention to you

Wys
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Adam P
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25-03-2010, 10:31 PM
Hi again.
I didn't use e collars for sheep chasing originally, my first e collar case was an 18month gsd whos owner had bad arthritis in her hands. The dog pulled badly despite haltis/harness two private trainers and a class. The owner rang me and explained the situation and that she would have the dog rehomed if it wasn't fixable. I'd brought an e collar already and researched the subject, so decied to have a try.
I used it on the lowest level (the dog just aware of it) and used the sensation while pulling the dog back into a heel position. I repeated this numerouse times and then used numerouse distractions (dogs people rubbish ect) before getting the owner to do it, by this stage the dog understood what was required and the owner was able to remind her not to pulll by pressing the button, the dog would then go back to heel position. This allowed the owner to keep the dog (who she loved very much and who the dog was devoted to) and gave them both a far happier relationship.
I'm afraid I don't agree with that Wysiwyg, yes the sensation is unpleasent but no more so than a flea bit or a fly landing on the skin, it's effect because of the ablity to keep the sensation on then take it off. If you use the collar at too high a level that would distract the dog from the task in hand. I never up the level to show the dog what can happen, there's no point it would interfer with training.

Plymouth uni Rune bsc animal behaviour and welfare.

Adam
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rune
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25-03-2010, 11:38 PM
Oh dear---how many times have we heard the 'flea bite' comment.

Sorry but there ARE other methods of teaching a dog to walk to heel.

Probably not covered in such a wide degree!

rune
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Emma
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26-03-2010, 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Hi again.
I didn't use e collars for sheep chasing originally, my first e collar case was an 18month gsd whos owner had bad arthritis in her hands. The dog pulled badly despite haltis/harness two private trainers and a class. The owner rang me and explained the situation and that she would have the dog rehomed if it wasn't fixable. I'd brought an e collar already and researched the subject, so decied to have a try.
I used it on the lowest level (the dog just aware of it) and used the sensation while pulling the dog back into a heel position. I repeated this numerouse times and then used numerouse distractions (dogs people rubbish ect) before getting the owner to do it, by this stage the dog understood what was required and the owner was able to remind her not to pulll by pressing the button, the dog would then go back to heel position. This allowed the owner to keep the dog (who she loved very much and who the dog was devoted to) and gave them both a far happier relationship.
I'm afraid I don't agree with that Wysiwyg, yes the sensation is unpleasent but no more so than a flea bit or a fly landing on the skin, it's effect because of the ablity to keep the sensation on then take it off. If you use the collar at too high a level that would distract the dog from the task in hand. I never up the level to show the dog what can happen, there's no point it would interfer with training.

Plymouth uni Rune bsc animal behaviour and welfare.

Adam
Dear Adam,

I really don't agree with your statement above or previous ones you have made, and a university degree can not give people common sense IMO and that is what is lacking.

For you to say the pain is not different than a flea bite, well we try to prevent fleas on our dogs and I have seen dogs in great discomfort from fleas biting them, so to even go on those lines, you are wrong.

The lady/dog scenario you used, sounds like you wanted the behaviour to stop instantly rather than putting in the effort to use positive methods. I would not employ someone to do that to my dog, I would be more than capable of purchasing an e-collar and doing it by myself rather than paying someone to inflict pain on my dog. To me your story reflects people wanting a quick and cheap alternative.

I disagree with that it can fix a dogs problems, it can actually create more aggression or confusion in a dog, as dogs are unable to rationalise pain and can't always link it to a certain behaviour, that is trying to be curbed.

To have to utilised an e collar to stop a dog pulling is ludicrous, many dogs don't need a painful stimuli to curb pulling it can be done through consistency and positive based training.

You say you have researched the use of e-collars yet fail to mention that some reasearch is anti e-collars, to be fair in research you need to go in with an open mind, so you can see both sides, you never mention the negatives of using e-collars, so I would suggest you went into researching them with a bias towards finding the good outcomes with e-collars and ignoring the bad.

To say the e-collar is mildly uncomfortable, well that is to say the least, can I put one on you and randomly decide what I don't like in your behaviours (such as writing such nonsense) and see how much you like it. I hope in your testing you put it around your neck as that is where the sensation goes when on a dog.

You say it is unpleasant, of course it is, it is a pain based implement, you can pass it off as a flea bite, but I have seen someone using them on their dog and I could only say that poor quivering wreck of a dog did not get what the owner was trying to make it do, and was not a flea bite response it was one scared and hurt dog, and these days I would not hold back on saying what I thought to the owner.

As for predatory drive in some dogs, some breed have a high prey drive, I would suggest to anyone, unwilling to accept that if they got the breed as quite lacking in foresight and research into the breed of dog they obtained. If they are unable to find a more humane way of dealing with their dogs wanting to chase, they should get professional help for their dog, not a person with a degree that wants to stop the behaviour immediately and with painful methods.
Prevention is the best cure. Conscientious breeders of predictably high drive puppies carefully screen prospective buyers to determine if they can offer the puppy a suitable lifestyle. Such owners will have a fenced yard, ample time in their schedule to exercise the dog, the physical ability to handle the dog properly, and sufficient knowledge of the breed and its characteristics. Allowing a non-suitable buyer to obtain such a puppy could inevitably end in disaster. A wise breeder will refer non-suitable buyers to pet-quality breeders where high drive dogs are not so prevalent, discuss the possibility of a more suitable breed for the client, or discourage dog ownership of any kind for those clients who lack the lifestyle for owning a dog.
from this site http://www.canismajor.com/dog/hidrive.html

Would you be willing to use them on children to stop unwanted behaviour? As you suggest it is not cruel or painful (just uncomfortable semantics??) I would think not as it would be seen as inhumane?? Or do you think I should give it a go and create a whole new market for them??

If it is so humane why have they even thought of banning it?? If it is doing so much good with rescue dogs, why are most rescues against them?? Why are their studies showing it can do more harm than good?? Why are their cases of dogs becoming increasingly fearful or aggressive when e collars are used??

Emma
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Wysiwyg
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26-03-2010, 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Oh dear---how many times have we heard the 'flea bite' comment.

...

rune
Way too many Rune. I don't mean to be offensive Adam, but we've heard it all before. Usually from people who say the same as you - word for word - and then later we find they think its actually perfectly acceptable to use collars on high levels for things like gundog training (ie winning in the working tests/prestige) or even on painful levels for normal everyday dog training.

They even edit their videos to show happy dogs, and cut out the bits that show what I call "the ecollar walk", just in case anyone might think what they were doing was abusive. I've seen this done.

Unfortunately, they've already paved the way and proved themselves to be extremely unpleasant people, who will use any tactic in the book including bullying and worse to get their way, and who actually really do not give one hoot as to how high the collar levels are at the end of the day.

You are using the collar as negative reinforcement (which means adding an aversive into the training mix first) and then pressurising the dog. You use it as a training tool to train basic commands. I do find that abhorrent.

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Wysiwyg
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26-03-2010, 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by Emma View Post

I really don't agree with your statement above or previous ones you have made, and a university degree can not give people common sense IMO and that is what is lacking.
I agree, even though I'm also doing one

For you to say the pain is not different than a flea bite, well we try to prevent fleas on our dogs and I have seen dogs in great discomfort from fleas biting them, so to even go on those lines, you are wrong.
Agree very much with this
Flea bites can be painful especially if done more than once! Imagine being subjected to that quite a few times whilst being trained

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Emma
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26-03-2010, 07:16 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I agree, even though I'm also doing one



Agree very much with this
Flea bites can be painful especially if done more than once! Imagine being subjected to that quite a few times whilst being trained

Wys
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You can be doing a degree and still have common sense, if you don't have common sense, a degree will just not give you any no matter the title it give you
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Wysiwyg
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26-03-2010, 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
You can be doing a degree and still have common sense, if you don't have common sense, a degree will just not give you any no matter the title it give you
Very true, indeed!

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wilbar
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26-03-2010, 08:39 AM
But regardless of what level the collar is turned to, or how much physical pain it inflicts, it still doesn't take into account the startle/shock factor ~ and even the mildest form of shock & surprise can cause some dogs to react in an extreme way.

It also doesn't take into account the dog's emotional state at the time it is shocked. One of the many drawbacks of using the e-collar for predatory behaviour is that the dog is usually in such an aroused state in the presence of livestock, even at a distance, that a very "mild" shock may not register at all as the dog is so focussed on predatory behaviour, and if the level is turned up, then you are inflicting severe pain on a dog. By inflicting pain you are in the very dangerous position of the dog making spurious & incorrect associations between the pain & whatever else is present at the time.

Adam ~ you at first said you think the e-collar is a good idea for predatory behaviour, then your next post says you've used for something as simple as pulling on a lead!!! Surely any dog trainer worth his or her title, should at least be able to train loose lead walking without having to resort to inflicting electric shocks on a dog, however mild

If you are doing a degree in animal behaviour, surely you should be aware of the physiologcal reactions to stress/anxiety etc & know how to manage these? Similarly you should also be aware of the autonomic, endocrinal & behavioural responses to punishment & the huge detrimental effect these can have on memory formation & an animal's abilty to learn ~ so why on earth would you want to invoke these responses when you are trying to teach a dog something or modify unwanted behaviours?

I would have expected a degree in animal behaviour to also cover the principles of classical conditioning, second order conditioning & all the triggers that become associated with physiological arousal leading up to predatory or any other form of aggression. What's the point of trying to teach a dog to behave around livestock when it's already in such a hyped up state because of all the associations (CSs & CERs) that lead up to even going for a walk, let alone getting to the field where it can see the sheep!
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mishflynn
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26-03-2010, 08:52 AM
I guess it a good job you dont train in Wales the Adam.

I wonder what your clients think now that they hear that the methods youve used on their dog could have landed you in Jail or with a massive fine-had they lived THIS side of the border.



If it didnt hurt it wouldnt work. Simple as.
Punishment always has a side effect.

If people want to train with electricity i suggest they subscribe to one of the many on-line games where you can train virtual animals.
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