yes, adam resurrected it

as he had too admit his ecollar dog was showing stress signs, and had no come back on that.

so had to go away and tap another ecollar trainer for a get out clause, which he duly copied.

but which has defied all logic and is ever so convenient.

I don't deny stress occurs during training, but thats all training!

Adam

LOL.

rune

Life has stress - but it isnt all bad

anticipation, excitment could be called stress, but life would be dull without them

aprehension, fear, shutting down - why do our dogs need these things in their lives

and I do not see examples of positive training not working
If adam is usint the example that some people cannot train their dogs as positive not working then that is so wron
From what I see in the real world v few people train totaly positivly
Most people (not including people on this forum) reward dogs randomly and confusingly and tend to yell at their dogs and punish them randomly as well
training happnes inspite of the trainer

positive training works in all inteligent creatures
as does correctly timed punishments - but for different reasons

I think it is sad that just because dogs tend to be forgiving enough to let us away with punishing them that we abuse this power
Noone puts a shock collar on a domestic cat, or a mouse
yet people can and do train them using positive methods

as for shock collars 'saving' a dog from a restricted life
how free are they if they are fearing the freedom will bring them pain and being glued to their owners as the only safe place in the scary big world?
as a pose to the owner having the sense to work with their dog and train them with kindness and find safe places for them to be free

Mia is not 100% recal, and possibly never will be - even with a shock collar yet every day she is offlead because i find safe places to take her and I understand her triggers and recal her before trouble arisies
Her life is not restricted - infact it is fuller than it would have been because I have to be more imaganitive about where I take them
but
she is the type of dog who NEEDS to zoom, to run free
and seeing her in the distance, zooming all over the place at 200 mph with no fear only joy - I would never swap that for a poor scared cringing dog who clings to my leg

Personaly I dont see why we think we have the right to punish a dog because we are not smart enough to teach them what we would like them to do
They are not being bad - they are just being dogs, so its wrong to punish them for being themselves
You miss so much of your dog if you punish him until he 'behaives' because then they just stop doing things

You make them dumb, you make them scared, and you restrict their enjoyment of life

Could you expand on this please?

I honestly don't understand your thoughts on this

Hmm, takes wild stab in the dark...........

NEPOPO

a Bart Bellon premise which is predicated on incorrect learning theory...............

damn, I swore I would not be drawn into this............

Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Reward based emthods always start from the basis of negative punishment state anyway (no reward) which acts as a mild stressor.


This is gibberish. It`s not even English. And him a graduate too......... (he says)

Adam, Why should a dog suffer pain and anxiety because they arent good at training?

So, you admitt the E-collar is just easier for people to use?
I'm not sure I would give a child the control to an e-collar just so the dog might do as its told with them - that really could lead to distater and I'm sorry but I have a guarding breed, if dosnt do something for someone there is a bladdy reason!

That is because he has either cribbed it from Denis or he is Denis.

He makes the same grammatical mistakes as Denis does and he sounds like him---I do wonder.....

rune

The apple does not fall far from the tree, my view is that the longer he is on a forum the less harm he can actually do to a living dog.....................