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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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10-11-2010, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by SLB 
Surely a trainer would provide a timescale to fit the dog not the owner or the trainer him/herself?
And E-collars dont properly sort it - they simply mask the aggression with fear
I agree a good trainer would take as long as it takes to solve a behavioural problem. But then of course there are good trainers who consider the overall welfare of dogs and then there are e collar salesmen who really don't give a dam as long as a problem appears to be solved.
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,009
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10-11-2010, 07:25 PM
E-Collars are disgusting. I hope England bans them.
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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10-11-2010, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by spockky boy
That last video actually made me cry. Very cruel. I have flagged and reported it.
E-Collars are disgusting. I hope England bans them.
...(though I guess most caring dog owners who view this kind of video will then fully appreciate just how horrible and unnecessary these devices are and question the motives of those who advocate their use ).
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Location: Calvados France
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
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10-11-2010, 07:36 PM
To me anyone that needs to use a thing like this has no understanding of any animal.
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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10-11-2010, 07:53 PM
hes a completely useless trainer..e collar or not
gorgeous dobi
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
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10-11-2010, 08:21 PM
It's bcome apparent to me that people who resort to e-collars have no ability, no skill and certainly no empathy or instinct when it comes to dogs. Anyone can zap a dog into submission but it takes someone with certain qualities to properly train a dog.
Working in synergy - something these proponents of e-collars will never, ever achieve.
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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10-11-2010, 10:06 PM
However my experience has been the opposite.
http://co104w.col104.mail.live.com/d...?wa=wsignin1.0
By Stephen lyndsay a respected behaviourist in the states, who is also I believe coming to the uk this weekend for a seminar, I believe he was invited by proffessor Mills who is conducted a study into e collars for defra. I believe Mills invited him because he has found nothing wrong with e collars so far.
This page
http://smartdogs.wordpress.com/2010/...-cite-no-evil/
Also discusses the scientific studies in depth and discusses a very interesting study in the early 1980s.
I've copied it over in case anyone (like me) has trouble following links on this forum
Given the widespread references /cites to studies that support the idea that e-collars are not only cruel and abusive, but that they can also elicit aggressive behavior — imagine my surprise when I came across an article providing strong evidence that e-collars were astonishingly effective in rehabilitating aggression in dogs.
Daniel F. Tortora’s study, titled “Safety Training: The Elimination of Avoidance-Motivated Aggression in Dogs,” was published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General in 1983. The article is only available by purchase but is well worth $11.95 if you have an interest in this area. (Note: the article was also published in Australian Veterinary Practitioner in 1984, 14 (2), 70–74.)
Tortora took an elegantly simple approach to treating what he referred to as “avoidance-motivated aggression”. He proposed that because avoidance-motivated aggression is learned and maintained as an avoidance response, the most effective way to counter-condition it would be to teach the dogs nonaggressive avoidance responses.
Tortora defines avoidance-motivated aggression as “a form of instrumental aggression that involves attacks or threats of attack directed toward one or more of the dog’s human caretakers”. Avoidance aggression typically starts out as aggressive avoidance responses to things like physical discomfort (such as from grooming), intrusions on areas that the dog views as his territory and commands he doesn’t want to comply with. According to Tortora, these dogs usually suffer from a lack of training and predictability in their lives and therefore feel like they lack control over their environment. They behave like they expect bad things to happen and the only way to prevent the bad things is through aggression. When their frustrated owners resort to after-the-fact punishment, the dog’s expectations are reinforced, a feedback loop is created and the dog’s aggression escalates.
Tortora’s proposed remedy for this common, dangerous and difficult to remedy form of aggression consisted of teaching the dogs “nonaggressive, prosocial habits” such as AKC’s CDX level obedience exercises. He predicted that the probability of post-training aggressive behavior would be inversely proportional to the number of obedience exercises a dog gained proficiency in. The program also included teaching the dogs a conditioned safety signal that was used to reinforce good behavior and build the dogs’ confidence.
All exercises were introduced with the slip collar, then e-collar training was overlayed onto the introductory work. The e-collars used could emit two different tones, and tones and stimulation could be delivered separately or in conjunction with each other. The dogs were trained to perform 15 different commands at increasing levels of difficulty. These included: stand, down, come, go, hold, drop, sit, off, place, fetch, in, stay, play, no, heel, and hup. As commands were mastered, they were practiced in environments of increasing distraction. The dogs were initially trained by experienced trainers (Tortora doesn’t describe their qualifications but all were apparently able to train the dogs to a minimum of CDX level around significant distractions) in a board and train environment. Once the dogs were able to consistently perform the exercises under distraction without the e-collar, training was transferred to their owners, who used the e-collar only as needed to proof exercises.
Tortora stated that the dogs could be safely returned to their owners because: “Safety training with companion dogs, however, produces changes of long duration, perhaps even permanent changes. These changes in behavior readily transfer readily from the trainer to the dog’s owners and others.”
Many people are concerned that the stress of e-collar training will make dogs fearful or aggressive. While the dogs developed an initial conditioned anticipatory fear reaction during the escape training portion of Tortora’s program, their fear was extinguished during the subsequent avoidance and proofing stages. Upon reviewing these results, Tortora stated “It seems that the impact of safety reinforcement is to make the dog less fearful generally and better able to withstand trauma.”
How effective was this work? Well, in the abstract Tortora states that the program:
… resulted in complete and permanent elimination of aggression in all of the 36 dogs tested. In addition, it produced extremely extinction-resistant prosocial avoidance responses, significant increases in the dogs’ emotional stability, an avoidance-learning and safety acquisition response set, and improvements in measures of the dogs’ “carriage
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Location: Herefordshire, UK
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 9,634
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10-11-2010, 10:12 PM
And rubbish it surely is.
Personally I couldn't care less about the claims of success when using e collars or any similar physical punishments - it is just not acceptable to do this to dogs, full stop
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Location: Nottingham, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,540
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10-11-2010, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
There's alot of chat about scientific evidence to suggest e collars are bad.
However my experience has been the opposite.
http://co104w.col104.mail.live.com/d...?wa=wsignin1.0
By Stephen lyndsay a respected behaviourist in the states, who is also I believe coming to the uk this weekend for a seminar, I believe he was invited by proffessor Mills who is conducted a study into e collars for defra. I believe Mills invited him because he has found nothing wrong with e collars so far.
This page
http://smartdogs.wordpress.com/2010/...-cite-no-evil/
Also discusses the scientific studies in depth and discusses a very interesting study in the early 1980s.
I've copied it over in case anyone (like me) has trouble following links on this forum
Given the widespread references /cites to studies that support the idea that e-collars are not only cruel and abusive, but that they can also elicit aggressive behavior — imagine my surprise when I came across an article providing strong evidence that e-collars were astonishingly effective in rehabilitating aggression in dogs.
Daniel F. Tortora’s study, titled “Safety Training: The Elimination of Avoidance-Motivated Aggression in Dogs,” was published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General in 1983. The article is only available by purchase but is well worth $11.95 if you have an interest in this area. (Note: the article was also published in Australian Veterinary Practitioner in 1984, 14 (2), 70–74.)
Tortora took an elegantly simple approach to treating what he referred to as “avoidance-motivated aggression”. He proposed that because avoidance-motivated aggression is learned and maintained as an avoidance response, the most effective way to counter-condition it would be to teach the dogs nonaggressive avoidance responses.
Tortora defines avoidance-motivated aggression as “a form of instrumental aggression that involves attacks or threats of attack directed toward one or more of the dog’s human caretakers”. Avoidance aggression typically starts out as aggressive avoidance responses to things like physical discomfort (such as from grooming), intrusions on areas that the dog views as his territory and commands he doesn’t want to comply with. According to Tortora, these dogs usually suffer from a lack of training and predictability in their lives and therefore feel like they lack control over their environment. They behave like they expect bad things to happen and the only way to prevent the bad things is through aggression. When their frustrated owners resort to after-the-fact punishment, the dog’s expectations are reinforced, a feedback loop is created and the dog’s aggression escalates.
Tortora’s proposed remedy for this common, dangerous and difficult to remedy form of aggression consisted of teaching the dogs “nonaggressive, prosocial habits” such as AKC’s CDX level obedience exercises. He predicted that the probability of post-training aggressive behavior would be inversely proportional to the number of obedience exercises a dog gained proficiency in. The program also included teaching the dogs a conditioned safety signal that was used to reinforce good behavior and build the dogs’ confidence.
All exercises were introduced with the slip collar, then e-collar training was overlayed onto the introductory work. The e-collars used could emit two different tones, and tones and stimulation could be delivered separately or in conjunction with each other. The dogs were trained to perform 15 different commands at increasing levels of difficulty. These included: stand, down, come, go, hold, drop, sit, off, place, fetch, in, stay, play, no, heel, and hup. As commands were mastered, they were practiced in environments of increasing distraction. The dogs were initially trained by experienced trainers (Tortora doesn’t describe their qualifications but all were apparently able to train the dogs to a minimum of CDX level around significant distractions) in a board and train environment. Once the dogs were able to consistently perform the exercises under distraction without the e-collar, training was transferred to their owners, who used the e-collar only as needed to proof exercises.
Tortora stated that the dogs could be safely returned to their owners because: “Safety training with companion dogs, however, produces changes of long duration, perhaps even permanent changes. These changes in behavior readily transfer readily from the trainer to the dog’s owners and others.”
Many people are concerned that the stress of e-collar training will make dogs fearful or aggressive. While the dogs developed an initial conditioned anticipatory fear reaction during the escape training portion of Tortora’s program, their fear was extinguished during the subsequent avoidance and proofing stages. Upon reviewing these results, Tortora stated “It seems that the impact of safety reinforcement is to make the dog less fearful generally and better able to withstand trauma.”
How effective was this work? Well, in the abstract Tortora states that the program:
… resulted in complete and permanent elimination of aggression in all of the 36 dogs tested. In addition, it produced extremely extinction-resistant prosocial avoidance responses, significant increases in the dogs’ emotional stability, an avoidance-learning and safety acquisition response set, and improvements in measures of the dogs’ “carriage
Maybe I shall get a diobedient child and put an e-collar around his neck and see if a couple of zaps from that would help. I know you'll say it doesnt hurt but I saw your Jacca wince and turn in an instance when you zapped him when your collie went near him...have you ever put a collar around you neck and tried it at all levels? Do you even know how dogs work, how they act, behave?
Dont try to hide behind all this nonsense - you're not a real trainer, you dont have a licence or any client videos to show us, you have no proof that they work and the proof that you have submitted shows dog that are absolutely terrified and darent put a foot wrong. Well I wont be suprised when and if them dogs turn on you and everyone else who uses these mindless barbaric collars.