That's exactly what I am looking forward to, a time when people will see the beauty of these dogs as nature intended them to be. :smt002

Oh yues the beuty...beuty of torn tails, suffering great amount of pain, working dogs suffering frequently, pups being docked by ill gained methods by novices, breeds becoming rarer as people will not want them if not docked, breeds becoming more rare due to not being able to work.
Yeah that will be great..but, you know a full tail is more important than anything else!
This is pathetic...the whole lot of it is Coming from people who have probably never experienced docking, never probably owned a docked breed, probably never seen a terrier/gundog work, probably never had to pick up the pieces of these tail injuries to undocked trad. docked breeds-it just makes me laugh!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but i just love how people preach about things they only know about through reports or word of mouth

Yes Luke, everyone is entitled to voice their opinion without having sarcasm thrown back at them to be honest.
This debate has been really good tempered Luke, despite being such an emotive subject.
I DO NOT need to see a dog being docked, nor do I want to go on a hunt. My choice.
Yes, you are also entitled to your opinion...but somewhere, somehow, someone has to also stand up for the dogs Luke. We are both doing that, from different angles on the same issue.
There is no need to be patronising or sarcastic.

I honestly think Dawn's offer to take people with her on a shoot would be such a valuable thing to do...people would truly see just WHY the tail of a working gundog has to be docked, for their benefit.

Luke, I am totally anti hunting, so why would I go on a shoot?????
Why would I do that????
So I can SEE that I am totally anti hunting???
What is it going to make me do Luke, decide to dig into pheasant for my dinner? I think not. Going on a shoot won't alter my opinion one iota. I can promise you that. So what would the point be exactly??? Would you listen to me saying I am anti hunt more? Would you listen to me saying I am anti docking???? Nope, don't think so? :smt002

Luke I am anti hunting AND anti docking.
If you follow that thought through, then I'm not going to be pro the docking of working dogs on shoots, if I don't think the shoots should be happening am I??? :smt002 :smt001

As I said, this thread has been good tempered and a pleasure to be part of so far. I am at a different end of the scale to some of the people on it (and vice versa) but there has been a lot of mutual repsect going on, which is fantastic. I have learnt a lot, which is always good.:smt002
I do not need to have sarcasm thrown at me though, or be patronised. I have my opinions, you have yours.

Having said that..more than happy to meet up post shoot for a drink or two. :smt002

I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a flame war, as it has been really good natured so far.

Regarding having an opinion on something without experiencing it - I think it is acceptable to have an opinion on docking without having seen it done and without going on a shoot to see the dogs working. However, I do feel that to have a more balanced view, it would help. JMO. In fact, you don't even have to see the birds being shot to see the dogs doing their work, if that would help.

I agree Moobli.

As for the going on a shoot part, I answered that in my last post! :smt002

I think what Luke is trying to say, is that if you actually saw the dogs working then it may alter your mind about the docking of working spaniels. However, as you say, if you don't feel that shoots should be happening anyway, then you won't agree with working spaniels.

They say they know there has been no problems because there still know where all there pups are, they will only sell them to other gun dog owners. It may sadden you and I did not attend to do that. I have never seen this being done so I would not accuse or report any one with out knowing what they say to be true.
I have been at my vets when docking has taking place, and I notice how quick and painless it seems, most of the pups I saw were more vocal being taking away from their mum, so I assume it could not have been painful. My dog yelped a lot louder when I stood on her paw.

I am totally anti hunt and anti docking and in my perfect world neither would happen. :smt002
However, the world ain't perfect and hunts and shoots do still happen and dogs are part and parcel of them.
IF hunts etc are happening and if ,after much study, experts decided it was best for dogs to be docked to participate ,then I would expect the docking to be done under a GA with pain killers and appropriate after care. Docking hurts, I have no doubt of that, vets think so as do many people who have experienced different types of docking first hand. You only have to read through this thread to see that. If docking hurts, it shouldn't be done with no pain relief or GA. My opinion. For what its worth.:smt002 :smt001

As I said though, in my head, in my perfect world, dogs would not have to be docked because they would not be used on hunts. (There would be no hunts.)