Are we talking training----as in teaching the dog to do certain 'tricks' like walking to heel and sitting or are we talking living with dogs generally. Also when do you consider a dog is 'trained'?

rune

I havent answered because I am not sure I fit 100% into any category

I totaly agree with most of what has been said there, and Mini fab examples

I try and use positive reward and negative punishment
I dont believe my dogs are ever naughty, they are just being dogs and if I dont like it it is up to me to try and stop the behaviour

I am human and on the odd occasion have yelled, infact I can only think of twice, once Ben was chewing a book when I came into the room, I yelled 'NO' he stopped chewing and has never chewed another book, but he also hid in another room for 1/2 an hour and was v cowed around me for the rest of the day
the other time he was running into the road when a car was coming, I thundered 'BEN' and he turned round to see what the crazy noise was

I used to give a gentle 'no' when he was about to break his stay but I have found much better to to make stays very very rewarding and lavish treats on them any time there is a distraction before they have a chance to move
That gives a much happier stay as they see distractions as a great chance to get rewarded

Hi Rune was that for me?

Not so much tricks, more general living with dogs IMHO ...
Getting Sit, Stay, Wait, Down etc to a good standard you can rely on even when there are distractions, that sort of thing...

So for instance, if a person has a problem with dogs leaping out of the car when they open the car door, they might usually yell "ah no, bad, come here, get back in, bad dog" or whatever. Whereas, a trained dog would be asked to Wait, and would know to Wait until released. That sort of thing

I've been to BSD days (bsd peeps tend to often have several dogs) and sometimes the people who do not train for this sort of thing appear to have very "naughty/bad" dogs. They yell at their dogs, scruff them and shove them back in. I've seen it in plenty of other places too.

In fact, all they need to do is to train them to Wait or Stay and to come out of the car on command. It looks very cool to be able to get the dogs out one by one, on their name ... love that! Always lovely to see.


Wys
x

Hi Wilbar I can empathise and believe me when I found Chloe had eaten a hole in the newly repaired kitchen wall (Millie the puppy I had recently lost at 9 months with kidney failure had chewed a hole in the same wall and I had just repaired and decorated it ) and also when she scratched a hole in the hall carpet (I am guessing she was trying to catch a woodlouse ) I could have happily throttled her , or at the least shouted but it would have been pointless and wouldn't have repaired the damage which was down to my lack of supervision. From then on I put a stool in front of the wall and a made sure she didn't have access to the hall carpet.

Any overreaction on my part could also have caused Chloe to fear me when I had worked so hard to make sure she she had learn only to trust and not to fear.

Now I am getting confused about what is positive and negative I have used a harness and line to control a puppy while it learns recall but I don't think of this as negative, I am not shouting at the puppy or dragging it on the line just providing the opportunity to explore in safety.

I think someone mentioned they use positive training except when a dog is in danger.
I don't quite see the logic in this.

What situations are dangerous for a dog ,
..eating something it shouldn't,
..picking up something it shouldn't,
..chasing something it shouldn't

When thinking about a dog being in a dangerous situation I ask myself what do I want to achieve and how can I best achieve this. Obviously I want to save the dog from danger and I can best achieve this by staying calm and using 'tools' I have previously taught the dog, if I shout and get angry the dog is more likely to be startled and to behave unpredictably and less likely to obey or return to me.
It can be difficult when ones natural reaction is to shout and get angry but logic tells me it is not the best way to handle a situation.

I find all the situations I have mentioned can almost always be coped with by using the 'tools' of leave it/drop it/ sit/come. One situation that can't is the desire to chase in a dog with a high prey drive and for this I would try to avoid the situation arising which means only letting the dog off a lead in a safe area.

Yes I agree ~ what's the point of shouting at them for something they may have done hours ago! If they don't understand why they're being told off, all it can do is make them worried about your reaction when you come home.

The part that made me laugh with my two dogs was that they obviously knew they had done something wrong before they even knew what my reaction would be! Both lying down instead of coming to the door to greet me. And there was absolutely no need for me to shout or do anything other than stand there & look at the mess. I suspect it may have been Wilma that started the chocolate box raid, as I don't think it would occur to Barney to even look. But no doubt he happily joined in when Wilma "liberated" some chocolates

At least with Chloe you've found a prevention rather than having to find a cure, so that way the situation can be avoided completely.

I have used positive reinforcement for both my yorkies but they were easy to work with and loved any type of training. I'm sure that some would need a very loud NO

Hi Wilbar I am unsure how a dog can know it has done wrong. I thought dogs had no 'awareness of self' and because of this were unable to experience guilt in any form and what we interpret as their knowing they have done something wrong is their reaction to our body language or association with a previous similar event .
Could your dogs have been so absorbed in the chocolates they failed to hear your approach .

Years ago my Mini 'Bunny' ate all my sons's easter eggs, four large ones paper and all and the chocolates inside.
She didn't come to meet me, I guess she felt too sick
We were staying with my parents at the time and had to go to the emergency vet, no treatment was given and the only ill effects were a very runny tummy.



I do get quite confused about what is 'negative' or 'positive'. I began what I think of being positive training long before I ever heard the term used when I was working with a really horrible kennel manager who used a length of hose pipe to beat the dogs (this didn't leave a bruise or mark) and dragged them around with choke chains .

Having just been given the first dog which was 'all mine' as opposed to a family dog, I determined to train her by trying to understand her pospective on things and using methods which didn't causing fear or pain, this to me is positive training. I found by using this method I had the most amazing little dog which trusted me 100%. I could put her in a sit, walk away and leave her and she wouldn't move if a bomb dropped next to her. I had her until she was 16...

I try and be 100% positive, however there are (and always will be) occasions when it's not appropriate...

I find generally a loud shout/noise is a good distractor, and sometimes, just a change in the tone of voice works just as well.

I have had to get physical with the dogs at some times, noteably when they are involved with other dogs or my birds.

For instance, one of our chickens escaped, and Murphy got hold of it and started pulling feathers out. At this point, Max had obeyed my command of "LEAVE IT - DOWN" and was laid on the floor shaking with excitement. Murphy had completely ignored me.

I got hold of Murphy's mouth and prised his jaws off the chicken, which lay on the floor. I gave him a smack on the bum, then grabbed his scruff and gave the "DOWN" command, reinforcing it by making him lay down (not alpha rolling or anything like that!)

I was then able to pick up the bird, who was missing a few feathers but essentially unhurt, and remove him. When I got back, the dogs were still on the floor. I then asked for a sit, rewarded them for that and we moved on with the day.

Not 100% positive, but occasionally, it has to be done!