Advice for a child agressive dog

Hi
These people have asked me for some help and I am just checking that I am thinking along the right lines
(they have been to a behavoirist who charged them a small fortune and said she couldnt help the dog!)

He was a lovely dog as a youngster and when he was about 8 months old they got a 2nd pup
Then a short time after that he became aggressive
he had a few totaly unprovoked snaps at Ben (like Ben was lieing on the ground totaly facing the other way) he never hurt him - lots of noise and snapping - poor Ben totaly shaking
He has been on the lead ever since
But he also has a huge problem with children, up on his hind legs barking and lunging

His aggresson to other dogs has calmed down pretty much (except for boxers and rotties - both of which attacked him as a pup) when the vet spotted his bad hips and gave him medication and hydrotherapy

But the kid one still remains
I found out last night that as a pup he was surrounded by a load of kids and that scared him

So I am pretty sure it is fear agression

No what to advise??
My gut feeling is to suggest taking him out without the other dog and desensitising him to kids - a long distance away and rewarding calm behaviour, then getting closer and closer
and possibly when he is calm enough (over lots of time) for a kid to stand close have the kid dropping treats and stuff

does that sound any good??

Also I wondered how to deal with an agressive outburts - sometimes kids cut through the park before we notice and he is up and barking
Is turning round and walking away a good idea?? teaches the dog to move away from a situation he dosent like?
or does that help his fear, 'if I bark at the kids i get taken away so the nasty kids go away'
Telling him he has been bad?? or ignoring it??

Of course everyone else in the park are CM fans and they have suggested 'finding the spot to grab on the dogs neck that calms it down' 'making the pssting noise' ' rolling the dog' and 'booting the dog' (I know not all CM ideas)

What do you all think?? I really think this dog can be helped if has just had a couple of bad experiences coupled with being in a large amount of pain

Thankyou
Pam

I wouldn't advise the CM idea Ollie is fearful of strangers not Children so much, but he doesn't like them rushing at him.
We used the dropping treats at his feet but always being aware he is uncomfortable with strangers it was with adults we did this though. He will now lay comfortably at my feet while I chat to strangers as long as they don't try to stroke him he is quite happy.
If I had tried any of the CM ideas I am sure I would not of progressed as far as I have with him. We tell Adults and Children alike he does not like to be fussed by strangers when they are within hearing distance and making a bee line for him so they then stop.
He can walk through crowded towns and stays close to us and no lunging and barking so maybe start off with taking him to places and taking it step by step but don't let the Children touch him or even get near him to begin with, you may have to cross over at first and I would say ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good behaviour.
I think if I had had tried any of the CM ideas Ollie would of bitten me (reverse aggression) I think they call it.
Good luck.

You know I had always ment to ask how people did with CM stuff on big dogs ) how do you force something to submit when it is 3 times the weight of you

No I totaly agree that using force would not work in this situation - or really any situation

Sounds like you have done really well with your guy

This dog goes mental when there are a group of kids about 100m away so it is gonna have to be baby steps! he just about trusts kids who walk dogs he is friends with - but it takes a long time for him to trust them without the other dog there

Hi Ben, Wow your taking on a whole load of issues there, I know your doing really well with ben, but it may be a good idea to get help form someone with heaps of experiance in aggression for this dog, One wrong move can lead to further problems,
what breed of dog is it? what age is it now?

Hi Pam a very difficult situation involving a dog which sounds to have both fear and possibly pain from a hip problem. I would agree with you suggestions but in the case of aggression involving humans and children extreme caution is called for even if it means keeping the dog away from children permanently or re homing it where there are no children around. Never take risks.
Was the behaviourist a referral from a vet and did they belong to a recognised body like the APBC.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/


Association with a bad experience can be a very difficut thing to overcome in a dog and it is often a case of managing the situation rather than ever hoping to overcome it.
If this person hasn't seen a good behaviourist as described above it might help her to see one. Aggression is one thing that needs to be handled 'in person' in order to make a proper assessment of the dog and to see how the owner reacts and handles the dog. Only the most general of suggestions can be made on a forum.
Well done Pam for your help and good advice

My advice would be that the dog should be muzzled when out in public and the owners should seek help from another behaviourist/ trainer.

Unless I had many years of experience in training dogs I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole.Some things are best left to experienced dog trainers jmo like xxxxxxxx

Hi hun, not wanting to start a CM debate but I think the point is you don't force them to submit. I think CM believes that if the dog sees you as 'pack leader' then it will submit to you without any force. Not that I am saying this is right or that it works, just how I understand it

Good luck with your friends dog xxx

Hi Pam,

I can’t believe that the dog trainer said she could not help and charged them a small fortune at the same time! Maybe they could approach the APBC and ask to recommend a dog behaviourist who is specialised in that area.

I think you are giving them good advice by telling them to very slowly try to desensitise him and create good associations with children. But as this can get very dangerous, doing this with the help of a professional would be best. I hope they are still prepared to approach a professional dog trainer after their bad experience.

You could also suggest to them that they try the DAP collar, that will help to calm him down during walks and he should feel less stressed.

When he barks at children in the park I would not recommend walking away. The owners should make the ‘psst’ noise to get his attention and then distract him with a toy (but only if he stopped barking as he should not see it as a reward). The toy should be waved in the opposite direction where the child is to be out of his direct view. They should not let him off the lead.

In relation to any aggression problem, it is also always good to teach the recall command until it is absolutely reliable. A safe way to practice that is to use a long training lead.

Let them know that they should not give up hope. It will be a long process but if they are consistent and patient, they will reap the rewards in the end.

I am not about to give tips on what sounds like a seriously complex problem as i am not a qualified trainer. Although i am pleased to see that they sort help albeit unsuccesful - maybe there are some other local trainers they could try?