i have had the pleasure of socialising a number of pups now and all have been well socialised with dogs and people and different situations.

I would not go to any puppy class where unvaccinated dogs were allowed. It is foolhardy in my opinion. I wonder how many dogs ill with parvo those who don't vaccinate have seen.

Cosmo has been with us since Friday ,he is happy to wear his collar and lead. He has a reliable sit command and almost has a 'stand' command too. He comes to his name. He has been well travelled in the car and now curls up and sleeps. He has been carried down a very traffic heavy street. he has met a variety of people and has been in someone else's home and even in a lift. All in 5 days. He has not been on the floor outside of our home/garden the vets and won't be. My arms may ache with carrying him but the advantages of carrying him are vast, the world can be a scary place to a youngster and so discovering it from the safety of a trusted humans arms is so much better than discovering it when you are low down on the floor.
Yes pups get heavy, one of my pups now weighs in at almost 50kg....I carried him until he was 14 weeks and he wasn't a quiet boy, he was desperate to get down...but boy is he happy to go anywhere and do anything and meet anyone.

Puppy vaccs are vital for the health and welfare of the entire dog population...it is all about responsible dog ownership...titre testing can then be done to see if boosters are needed. Being a responsible owner is not just about looking after your own dog, it's about ensuring you do your bit to make sure your dog isn't a risk to others.

I had Teagan out on the floor in front of our house after her first injection - we would potter to the end of the street and back (about 3 mins in total).
She weighed 12kg at 12 weeks (when I got her, and when she had her first injection), so when she had her second, it took me and a friend to carry her into the vets!

When I got Riley boy, I was told by the vet that after his first jabs he was fine to meet other dogs that were vaccinated, and to go out and about as long as it was not around strange dogs and he was not sniffing anything.
He was then properly allowed out a week after his 2nd Jabs.
I have however heard so many different things from different vets. The latest dog owner that called for my services was told to wait 3 weeks after the pups 2nd jabs before letting it outside. Their puppy was 10 weeks when they started the vaccines, so would have been 15 weeks when he would have been eventually let out!!!!!

''Puppy vaccs are vital for the health and welfare of the entire dog population...it is all about responsible dog ownership...titre testing can then be done to see if boosters are needed. Being a responsible owner is not just about looking after your own dog, it's about ensuring you do your bit to make sure your dog isn't a risk to others.''

I feel this is a very personal subject, with much to learn about. I don’t feel that this statement is valid, judging by the fact you mentioned titre.
You use the word ‘Vital’ to mean that without vaccinations the entire health and welfare would be non existent. I am afraid I have to argue that, again, vaccines are a new phenomenon, populations have existed for thousands of years without the intervention, and in actual fact people claiming science has gone in and wiped out entire wild populations of animals in Africa thinking they ‘needed’ rabies vaccination.

Vaccinations are not without harm, and as I mentioned earlier i believe this is a personal thing, we have to do our best to make the decisions for our pets.

Again I am a little confused – why would you NOT put a dog/pup with unvaccinated dogs/pups if your own is ‘protected’? Surely the ones at risk are the unvaccinated dogs/pups?

When I took the boys to the vet we were told to socialise them as soon as poss, don't take them near rat infested areas i.e canal banks ect cause he reckoned they would be more likely to pick up dis or parvo from rat urine rather than other dogs, then when we went back for the final jag, different vet, told us now remember to keep them in for at least another week ! The boys had already been out and about duh !

I will not let my pup on the floor till a week after her 2nd Vax, to do so before I feel would be unfair and too risky. As a owner who lost a pup to Parvo many years ago, not due to it being out early may I add more to the fact the mother wasn't vaxd and he more likely had it when I got him. I could NEVER live with myself if it happened due to my impatience of taking the dog out early.

A dog can be successfully socialised in your arms as so many have said, she is nearly 10kg at 11 weeks my arms grow an inch or 2 to carry her but her feet will not be touching the floor. She has said hello to lots of people been in the car, been to my mums house whos dogs are fully vaxd.

To allow dogs or take dogs who are not vaccinated to a training class is IMO way too risky and unneccessary and unfair on the other owners. Zeita is officially allowed out today and I am still worried about Parvo but she will be out weekend on her lead when she has got over her poorly tum

Mel x

Lepto is actually the disease you can get from rat urine.

It is also a bacteria, NOT a virus and dogs are only vaccinated against 4 strains, and there are about 25 strains! On top of that immunity for this bacteria lasts around 6 months.
So for this vaccine I say no thanks, you have more risk of getting a problem from the vaccine rather than get benefits.

If I was to vaccinate I would seperate them out and give time for recovery after each one (you are injecting live virus after all) and I would miss the lepto, ask discussed; a waste of time*.

*In my (learned) opinion.

As I said there are no gurantees. In all honesty if I knew a trainer allowed unvaccinated pups (and again I stress as pups as titre testing can come into play later) I wouldn't trust that trainers opinion on anything as in all honesty (and as you keep stressing it's 'personal' I would think the trainer was totally irresponsible and I wouldn't want anything to do with them.

You are implying that I (as you know I am a trainer) am irresponsible and I take that very personally. It seems you find a need to pick holes in my every post, as though I come on here to spread false truths.

As a scientist, I have worked with immunolgists. I have a deep understanding on the background of this subject, and I have no intention of trying to change anyone's opinion. IN fact I don't even mention it to clients. I use the word 'personal' as I believe there are risks with both sides of the arguement, for me, from my learning, money is a big factor in today's world, and the risks for vaccinating outweigh the benefits. Therefore I decide not to vaccinate.
My only fault is not making it clear to my clients and attendees, but that is easy to fix with a declaration form.


For information, Titre testing is the vets way of making money...titres generally are more expensive than the vaccine. For people in the know about vaccine reactions and who want peace of mind titring is a great way to get that.
However most people, including yourself it seems, are not aware that the titre doesn't tell you much about immunity, what it tells you are at that moment in time what floating anti-bodies are present in the body.
Present anti-bodies do not indicate immunity, unpresent does not either.
Memory cells (the things that produce the anti-bodies) are currently unmeasurable.

The ONLY way to tell if an individual (human/animal) is immune to a disease is to challenge that individuals system - with the disease.
Most people would feel uncomfortable doing this.

I don't deny that I think allowing a young puppy on the ground with no cover from vaccinations is totally irresponsible. I'm not going to lie about it or pretend. It is not very often that I am that brutally honest on here.

You know and I know that I wouldn't come to your classes regardless of your vaccination policy Jess, as I wouldn't go to anyone that advocates the use of ecollars and has used them on their own dog.

I am however sorry, if you feel I am launching personal attacks, that is far from the truth, I don't know you so how can I? I do however challenge some of the things that you say as you have a tendency (IMO) to make sweeping statements which could mislead people who just pop on to read threads.

I have had many heated debates with people on here, I totally disgaree with many people on here, BUT some of those people I have developed good friendships with and I have actually turned to for help and advice in the past. We will never agree on many things, but we get on and keep things pleasant and non personal. I would hope that people on Dogsey know that I do not resort to personal attacks or comments, but I will not say nothing if I really disagree with something.

As I say, I apologise if you feel my attacks are personal, I don't mean them to be BUT I do think you are being irresponsible not vaccinating your pup and I wouldn't go to a 'trainer' who I knew approved of and used methods I disagree with.