Wys, If changing your technique has worked for you then thats great, but sadly its not the same for all handlers, This is what I mean by "limiting your training methods" People should not feel bad for raising their voice when nessecary, nethier should they feel worried about being more "hands on" with their dogs. Its all about how/when/why you are doing it.

ALL methods are GOOD if applied in the right way

I feel its important to use your voice and body when communicating with your dog. these are the two "tools" you always have to hand!... Also The dog will focus on YOU as well as on his favourite toy/food.

I never said that Purely positive training always leads to disobedient dogs.... But sometimes it does...Equally, Other techniques are not always Harmful or cruel to the dog as some people are might believe and can lead to really well behaved dogs....But sometimes it doesn't...

ALL methods can be GOOD or BAD

To see this debate from another angle.....I have also seen Clients who are really "against the use of Titbits" They have a somewhat misguided sense that it somehow undermines their training? ...Again they are equally limiting their training...

No one education method works for all. Not for kids and not for animals.
I go to a club where the advanced group, having come from a range of other organisations (it`s a new club) use a range of methods. It`s interesting seeing how the dogs adapt to how their owner communicates.
It is also interesting to see how the handlers alter their own methods when they see how others work. That is - the successful ones.
I could not use certain methods. I`d get too stressed if I were shouty and am not competitive enough to get that bovvered if my dog doesn`t sit straight.
Maybe trainers should be worrying less about what they want to teach and more about what people want to learn.

I'm not sure I fully understand, but think you are talking about chaining? - ie dog jumps on sofa, told off, gets treat. Next time dog wants treat he jumps on sofa knowing he will be told to 'off' and hence get the treat?

An example of poor training having been applied, but I agree, it does seem to happen a lot and yet is so easy to avoid

yes - but unfortunatly often quoted by people as why positive training dosent work for their dog
When infact a dog smart like that makes a great clicker dog

That is not chaining. Chaining is actually putting together actions to produce the action you want at the end---backward chaining is doing the same thing but starting with the end result----ie teaching the dog to sit in front then adding the 'come' command to a recall.

I am talking about a dog who does as you describe----not bad training at all IMO. How do you distract from an action without making the reward of the distraction greater than the reward of the action?

Can you describe how you would avoid it?

rune

Totally agree---now tell me how you would avoid it happening?

rune

The dog has 'chained' the sequence

How would I avoid that sort of situation? If you never want the dog on the sofa, distract 'before' the dog jumps up there so the rewards actually come for not carrying out the act rather than remedial action after the event. Vigilance and consistency. Vary the rewards so they are unpredictable, a game, a walk into the garden, cuddle time, training time, going for a walk.

Really great but not practical in real life with possibly lots of other things happening. Rewards being unpredictable is attention for the dog---a reward in itself for many dogs.

Thats the trouble with idealism---it often doesn't work for the majority of people in real life situations. It makes people turn away from positive methods and look for fast hard fixes.

I think people should perhaps be helped more and not castigated for getting cross!

rune

To be honest, I've always found it works pretty well. Yep, pain in the backside to keep up the constant watching and pre-empting, but it's only for a few days (sometimes less).

Usually you can tell when a dog is getting bored long before the unwanted behaviour begins. Boredom is usually a sign that the 'naughtiness' will start as is tiredness in young pups. With a bit of initiative and careful management training moves quickly.

Getting cross is also attention for many dogs so not much difference really