That's so so true. I wonder how many people end up going to trainers like that just because they are at the end of their tether.

I feel so lucky to have the support of the Dog's Trust for the lifetime of my dog. I can go to them anytime I need training or behavioural advice and it's all free.

I was there the other weekend. Got really good advice - be firm, but NOT abusive. I guess there is a fine line, but someone who is actually running training classes should not IMO be hitting a dog.

I go to a training club that has a class specially for aggressive / antisocial dogs. (I have a previously aggressive dog.) The guy running it has years of experience dealing with nightmare dogs. I have never seen him use aggression or cruelty. If he can - why can`t others? There is a difference in being assertive and in being a bully. IMO using pain to train is just plain wrong.

No dog `needs` to be treated that way, ever

Sorry but that`s hog wash, utter complete hog wash

Unfortunately when people believe this king of alpha schmapha clap trap they tend to try barbaric methods first, if people stopped peddling the alpha rubbish the naive would`nt keep falling for it and allowing thug`s to abuse their dog`s

i agree no dog needs to be treat in a harmful way HOWEVER your statement on "alpha rubbish" i am 100% for alpha rules HOWEVER i certainly DO NOT AND WOULD NOT TRY BARBARIC WAYS TO TRAIN ANY DOG! please do not tar all things with one brush sure your entitled to your opinion of alpha not being good but it is just that your opinion alpha is extreemly good and has worked for many years for me having up to 15 english bull terriers all running loose together they all knew i was "alpha" ( not by my beating them but by my actions alone i never had to lay a finger on them! never would when i train i use possitive re-enforcement) they also had their own heirachy amongst themselves without the need of mass fights or anything at all like the od squirmish maybe but nothing serious so sorry but your opinion of alpha being rubbish is only your perspective. i now have apyrenean mountain dog nothing like a bull terrier at all the breeder told me oh no need for alpha stuff with this breed well sorry but my pyri is run by alpha also she does not rush out doors she is well behaved waits for us all to leave house first and is so calm the same as my bull terriers always were my youngest child can walk her at only 2 years old! she is a polite dog and its all down to my status of alpha simple as that if i say down off the sofa she gets down if i walnt to walk somewhere and she is in the way she will happily move NOT thru fear but thru respect!

understanding is the key to being alpha i can stop my dog and other peoples also by my vioce and my posture and my confidence and actions body postition etc. no violence needed!

as for prong collars i was unaware you could buy them here and they were legal they surely can not be very nice and there is many other ways you can help an aggressive dog without a prong collar i had a bully come to me she was badly treat by her previous owners and was dog and people aggressive she now is a happy fat bully who loves other people and dogs alike all done with love care and understanding and giving her the confidence by being alpha that she has no need to protect herself from the unknown as i am there i am her guardian and i will keep her safe

Im not sure they are worse than choke chains actually. With chokes you tend to see dogs still dragging owners down the road, however I have only seen one Dogwith a pinch collar and it walked beautifully after a couple of pulls. Obviously it felt the pich of the collar when it pulled, but to me the problem was now gone, whereas with choke chain it seems ongoing.

i dont agree with choke chains either i much prefer if you need to check your dog use a half check at least it does not choke the dog as chokers do

of course it is just my opinion it doesnt mean it is gospel but its how i work lol

Tanya x

The quick answer is no, leave well alone there is no need to drag or hit a dog at any time yet alone during training. Firm but fair training is the best way. In over forty years with dogs I have never had to resort to cruel methods when training.

Vallhund lover

The spiked collar acts like a choke as well - it tightens as much as you want. I suppose if you were that way inclined you could throttle a dog at the same time as driving spikes into its neck - so it`s no real wonder it gets an immediate effect. Depends really on what sort of person you are as to whether you feel it`s worth it.

my point is once all avenues have been exhausted they only 2 options left are the heavy handed one or the animal be PTS personally I would make sure I tried everything in my power before I PTS. There are circumstances the heavy handed approach is needed. I also agree sometimes people don't try everything before taking that approach.
ATD x

If you are getting to a situation where an animal is considered for being PTS then the animal must be showing strong agression
If you have tried other methods (for significant amounts of time) and the dog is really not showing any progress then I would either manage the situation (muzzle - seperating the dog, keeping it away from triggers) or if that was not possible and I was sure that NO positive methods could ever work then I would have the dog PTS before I would consider the heavy handed approach

reason being
as has been said in several threads
If you use force and agression with a dog it has learnt nothing except to supress its natural worning signals and to mistrust you
It might seem like it is behaving for a day or a week or even a year - but you have not addressed the problem you have only masked it
what you now have it is a time bomb who will not show you when it is afraid or angry - but if pushed to far it only has one avenue left to it - to attack - and to attack without warning

Most of the dogs that people think they have to be heavy handed with are big powerful dogs
If they wanted to these dogs could crush every bone in your hand
they choose not to
I think we should show them the same respect and show our superiour brain power to think of ways to show the dogs what we want without inventing new and more barberic ways to cause pain