Adam, have you seen dogs trained to retreive with the ear pinch method?
Some even say they get much better faster results if they use a spike collar to 'pinch' the ear up against

So the more the pain the more rewarding it is for the dog when the pain is removed

If you say you dont learn anything with pain then how come we dont all keep putting our hands in fires??
Avoidance of pain is something we learn v quickly, usualy without having to repeate the pain

But just because it works dosent mean it is right

Reality is there are lots of things we use dogs for, that dosnt mean it needed


If a dog does not sit exactly the way I want at recall, retrieve well etc. I would rather that an use pain on a dog to get it to do some frivilous, superflous (x2 sp?) task that simply makes me look better....

Same for any other activity, I would have liked to do agility with my dobe, he hates it, I might try to get him to enjoy parts he dosnt hate, but there is no way I would force him any further into doing something he hates, other than whats been tried (and found he just dosnt like it) So what would be the point of using pain to get him to do something he isnt enjoying.

A dog bought for any purpose, should be considered an empathic companion before anything else IMHO.

There isnt an excuse for pain to train.

Im sure now you ARE JUST TROLLING or could be the thickest person in the world.

Just a troll i think, Time for a Ban i think. Surely?????

Must be, Mish - keeps contradicting himself/selves!

And anyhoo.... if it don't hurt, then why isn't he using vibrating collars instead? They don't hurt.... and before he starts jumping on that one, if they didn't work, then people wouldn't use them on deaf dogs, would they?

If they didnt hurt , they woulduse something that did. Sadists

This is a LIE at best and a LIE at worst!! You said that Danny had told DEFRA he couldn't continue with the study.



I was a bit clearer than that I quoted Aug 09. yes he contacted DEFRA to tell them he could not continue with the study because he did not know enough about collars or the training protocols, I think he told ECMA first when they challenged him on sec 4 of the design, but maybe not, maybe he contacted DEFRA himself first.

Ask the DEFRA science team who are dealing with it ( I did suggest this for your peace of mind), here it is again DEFRA switchboard and ask for Andrea Paterson or John, Room 4a



Download of Prof Mills old section 4 download which was invalidated.

http://www.4shared.com/document/umKQmS27/Section_4.html

Adam

You said it well. Very true.

rune

I think I am being ignored

If they don't hurt why not use a vibrating collar.

Why won't you be a guinea pig using a shock collar?. I am sure you would learn faster after all you say the dogs do.

I could teach you to spell by using one.

rune

Can't get the link to work.

However, please clarify:

Is Danny Mills continuing with the Defra study that is due to publish its finding this year?

If so, did Defra beg him to continue with the study after he supposedly told them he couldn't?

If not, did the E-collar manufactuers association beg him to continue the study after he supposedly told Defra he couldn't?

JUST TO CLARIFY, HE DID CONTINUE WITH THE STUDY!!!!

LOL and you can sort out my spelling with sweeties and see who learns best?