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Hali
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Hali is offline  
Location: Scottish Borders
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07-06-2008, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by youngstevie View Post
If she was like that....you've done brilliantly Hun xxxxxxxxx
thanks.

she was most of that. She still has some compulsive repetitive behaviours, but we love her the way she is now
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by red collar View Post
hmm .. that's one severely damaged and thoroughly annoying ...err ...dog
Aye and a lot of work needed to get anywhere toward improvement methinks
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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07-06-2008, 10:07 PM
Steve
If you start a thread saying
3 simple steps to behavioural problems
did you not expect that people wouldnt agree with all your methods
To me it sounds v arrogent to post that and then get p!ssed off because people are not going
'Oh thank you so much that is fantastic why didnt I think of that?'
The thread has caused debate and people have put forward other ideas - which will make it more balanced for other people

Also if you dont put something in your post then you cannot be offended if someone brings it up
If you are starting a thread like this it is gonna be aimed at helping people who do not know the basics - because if they dont know a dog needs exercise then why do you take it as read that that same person will know that of course they should go to a vets 1st
Its not nitpicking - its helping for inexperienced people to read
so if you dont want people to assume then fill in the blanks
and if you miss something and someone else fills it in just have the good grace to thank them for making your post more compleate instead of taking it as a personal attack

I am sorry to hear there are so many lurkers here who do not value the likes of patch and feel the cowerdly need to hide behind pm's rather than take the time to construct helpful posts that are there for all to read
hmm let me think who the troll in that situation is

I am saddend that you have taken debate the wrong way and now you have your back up and taken dislike to people you have never met
I am learning lots and lots from these 'gods'!!! and I am sure you would have had some things to share too - but at the moment you are comming across as you know it all cos you have studied it and you are not even taking the time to find out the wealth of knowladge that other people might have

But if you feel that strongly and are that closed minded then there is always the ignore button! but you will be missing out on lots


Oh Patch - that dogs sounds a lot like a rescue collie - wasnt one of yours was it?? coulda been an interesting debate of what different methods coulda been tried
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post

All that I have derived since joining is that this forum isn't to help dog owners, it's for dog owners to brag about how much they know and disagree with anything and everything.
In your posts that seems to be the case, I just wish you could see that it`s what you have been doing since you arrived, this is everyone`s forum for everyone`s dogs, Dogsey does not exist to be about you you you
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Steve Wishart
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Location: Surrey, UK
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07-06-2008, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
Steve it is rather insulting for everyone who has taken time to reply here for you to attack people and then admit you havent read all they wrote[/b]
I have said several times, that I didn't read them because there was about 2 pages of people just having a poxy go at me, simply because it differed from their own opinion and as such, I was told by Azz to just ignored them to avoid arguments. But oh look, I ignored them and yet we still end up with arguments. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Have you looked at the links evie gave you about raw feeding - they have stuff about carnivores omnivores
Yes I did, they were... interesting.

seeing as dogs have been living on our meat scraps for thousands of years (when they joind us in the hunt the woulda got meat - we wouldnt have taken the time to cook veggies and grains for them) and feeding kibble is far more modern I think it should be you proving that dogs are omnivores rather than the other way around
So you will happily say that dogs have lived off human scraps for the past 14,000 years, but not accept that human scraps may have also contained vegetables?

(Also notice how you left that out, yet I'm not jumping down your throat with the world and his wife for not mentioning it.)

But
It is usually taken when the skull of a new animal is found to look at the teeth to figure out what the animals diet was
humans have some pointy teeth and some grindy teeth - omnivores
dogs have pointy teeth and their jaw only moves up and down not side to side = carnivores
So, dogs cannot eat vegetables because they have pointy teeth and their mouths only perform vertical movements... ?

Omnivores need vitamin C in their diet, carnivores synthesise it inside them - even kibble companies do not include vit C in their RDA's for dogs cos dogs dont need it
The argument was not based on dogs not functioning without vegetables, the argument was that vegetables can be feed to dogs, as well as meat.

There is differences in carnivores - cats cannot live without meat (afaik) they cannot utalise any other sources of protien
dogs, when times are lean, can scavinge and get buy on lots of different things - except they cannot break down the cell walls in uncooked veggies - really I would expect a omnivore to be able to eat veggies and get nutritional benifit from them
Again, research into that is hard to come by and is largely unproven by the mainstream.

Are wolves omnivores?? No. Is a dogs digestive tract much different? No
Wrong question, can wolves eat vegetables? yes. I never for one second said anything that contradicts that dogs are more predominently meat eaters than leaf eaters. Yet, judging by some of the replies, it suggests that I had done so.

Carnivores have much shorter digestive tract cos meat digests fast
omnivores and herbivores have much longer digestive tract cos it is more difficult to digest veggies and carbs

I cant give you 'proof' if you are looking for websites cos basically most you will see is some 'recearch' done by people paid by kibble manufacturars 'proving' they are omnivores - in general raw feeders havent done the recearch
1. cos they dont have funds cos except for the BARF diet noone is really making money out of the advice on raw feeding
2. once you have been feeding raw for a couple of months you really dont need any more proof than the happy little carnivore
As always, I'm open enough to listen and to be recorrected, as long as it is not done in some sort of condescending way, which is what I have mainly objected to in this thread.


I am confused you say people have gone off topic and nitpicking (mind you I am getting threads mixed up) you talked about feeding, exercise and pack theory things in your opening post - that is what we are discussing
Correct, but when people start giving me hypothetical situations as 'tests', whilst insulting me and my ability, I get rather annoyed by people trying to change the subject to me as a trainer, as opposed to the discussion in hand.

You knew not everyone would agree with you
I disagree on other points you put too but I have focused on the food because I am worried that you are recomending one type of food that isnt even considered all that good
Fair enough, it's what I feed my dog and as a result, I'll look into it further, but from what I have gathered, is that people are put off the product because its tested on animals. They did so without any proof and they made a statement that so vehemently disagreed with mine, based on ethical grounds, that upto the point, I hadn't heard of. If it is indeed true, then I'll change my own dog's diet and wean him onto something else, however, I haven't heard anything that suggests the practice method of that product and I haven't had any negative experience with my own dog (or any other dog that I recommended* the owner to buy for)

I dont want to assume anything about how much work you have done on neutrition so I will just ask
If only others had the same approach as you, I doubt I would have gotten half as worked up on this forum.

How did you come to choose that particualr brand? what criteria do you use for a good dogfood? do you recomend that food to your paying clients?
I was advised to get it by someone who I actually trust on their nutrition values, as such, I'll pass the info on to her next time I see her to quiz her. I go by a balanced diet criteria, Chinook also seems to eat less of this particular brand than others.

(and before you turn it around - I have no qualifications in this
That to me is a bit unfair, I haven't tried to turn anybody's comments around and I haven't asked anyone for their qualifications/experience as I find it highly irrelevant.

but like most raw feeders I have done many many hours of recearch into dog feeding, what goes into dog food and why and what a dog really needs)
And if I was to start weaning my dog on raw food, I would also do the same, so there's nowt to argue about there.

Mind you you prob aint even reading this
Dare I say it, another assumption?

Look, I didn't join this place to cause arguments, I would much prefer to be learning from most of the people that I seem to constantly be clashing with. Sadly, I don't appreciate the tone in which they are giving information and I don't like the fact that I am more often than not, arguing on this forum as opposed to learning.

Yes I'm stubborn and I think some people here spend way too much up on their high horses that they think they have the immediate right to say "you're wrong" without backing it up.

But I also learn exceedingly quickly and I'm open minded enough to take on board things that I may not understand right away, but again, I don't appreciate in how a lot of the information is given and I rarely tolerate people so pedantic who are just trying to spoil for a fight, forcing their opinions down mine, and anyone who is reading, throat like some deranged Jehovah's witness hellbent on conforming everyone to their own thinking.

I simply started a thread as a helpful post and I have been insulted, made fun of and unfairly questioned for doing so. I know it was a discussion, but frankly, if this is how discussions on Dogsey takes place, then I'd rather find another forum to learn from as well as try and help on.
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Hali View Post
Blimey - I didn't realise you met Hoki before she came to live with us
Originally Posted by youngstevie View Post
If she was like that....you've done brilliantly Hun xxxxxxxxx
Give us some tips for sorting the hypothetical one Hali, I beg you, pleeeeeze
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Malady
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07-06-2008, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
I did`nt mean you

Aye, very much so.

Steve, there is no point trying to use Malady and I as an example for you to score points, she and I know each other far too well for that and we are more than capable of telling each other what we think though she is stingy with raspberries of late which I must take up with her before I run out, and Shona come to think of it, she being the raspberry queen

WELL, HOW VERY DARE YOU !



THERE ! That should top you up for a while, and keep you mellowed

ps Malady, it`s a swine quoting from quotes which are in the same response box, sort it out eh ?
What can I say, the quotey thingeys don't always play the same game as me
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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07-06-2008, 10:30 PM
Ok - Im sorry I assumed were all at it
And glad you are open to learning and what other people say - some of your posts make it sound like that is not the case - again assumptions
But that is the problem on forums - we cannot tell tone or anything
some of the posts that have offended you I have read in totaly different ways because I have more experience of them (dont know them from Adam - or you )
Their posts sound high horsed to you and your sound the same way to them so everyone has their backs up
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Steve Wishart
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07-06-2008, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
Mind your language please, youngsters read this forum too.



I don`t consider dogs are carnivores only either but I don`t beat Evie up over it, it is possible to agree to disagreee politely you know, you should try it some time perhaps, certainly with people who were not showing animosity toward you which Evie did`nt ?



You don`t need links for it, and its not a preconceived idea, your attitude which is creating that appearance is in all of your posts - flooding does`nt work well with people either Steve



That is what you are doing to everyone else - not nice is it....



Sadly your continually throwing a dummy from the pram is what I have come to expect from you



Of a sort, but perhaps it was too subtle



Oh but yes, you do have something to prove, as does everyone who suggests anything for other peoples dogs whether en-mass or individually, and for dogs owned by readers passing through, those dogs lives could depend on it.



It does`nt need to be a new thread, I think it already made its point




Steve, you don`t know me well enough to use that terminology, its not very professional of you to stoop to it, and its a rather clumsy mode to patronise, you need more practise at it

[ hint - calling a bitter divorcee `sweetheart` is not a good idea ]
It`s best to just stick to peoples posting names until you get to know who you can use affectionate terminologies on, [ with sincerity ], and who you can`t
Again, too many condescending and patronising remarks put me off reading most of that thread. Especially seeing as I think your point in that thread was for me not to be condescending and patronising?....

I dunno, maybe I missed the original point.

Here's me politely disagreeing to agree. It would seem that many people in this forum are more than happy to carry on with the debate/argument, but I really have lost all interest in this thread and possibly this forum.

So here's me bowing out of this thread, I'm glad the original purpose of the message helped some out, made the post somewhat worthwhile me writing.
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AliceandDogs
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07-06-2008, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
Give us some tips for sorting the hypothetical one Hali, I beg you, pleeeeeze
I want to know how everyone would sort it out! I find it interesting the way people use different methods Maybe you could post it seperately Patch, as poor hypothetical dog is getting drowned out here
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